NEW MT5 Seriously Stuffed For Traders Platform

Edited because of posts on pages 15 and 16. Oct 28th 2009 Edit.

Edited I have also unsubscribed from my own thread. January 22nd 1010. Because of above.
The only reason for me to come back here is for the MT4 brokers list at the bottom of this post.


The capabilities of MT5 were released in a review.

What the third post's picture below really shows is two inequivalent scenarios. The opening of a short term SELL Trade, must be accompanied by the closing of an your BUYs in MT5 is not the equivalent of opening a sell position in MT4 (which is really neutral).

In MT5 you may have to be able to predict an entry with a pending BUY LIMIT in OCO with BUY STOP, OR be present again to re-enter the new BUY order(s) if you have previously counter trend traded with seperate positions in MT4 (which form an overall neutral position that costs you rollover).

A partial method to circumvent this trade operation change would be to allow MetaTrader 5 (MT5) to possess the ability of OCO orders. This means in the scenario below that traders may have both pending BUY STOP and Buy LIMIT orders (or sell) either side of the bid / ask prices. Then if the BUY STOP is taken then the BUY LIMIT is deleted (or the reverse (an OCO)). At the moment this does not appear to be the case.

But MetaTrader 5 (formerly known as MT5) has not done this.

It proves to me that an "upgrade" from MT4, to MetaTrader 5 is a downgrade for ease of multiposition handling.

This forces traders to think in ranges and trends rather than taking the immediate trade that they may see. In doing so it might help some traders with their trade practices.

At the bottom of this post is an MT4 Broker List.


UPDATE: 14 June 2009

1) Trade management made easier: Only ever one position (SELL or BUY but not both) on an instrument pair for forex. Post 8 page 1.

2) EA aided traders may be hindered; As an EAs often trades the same forex pair as the manual trader, if an EA trades opposite to the manual trader, than the trades will be made null, and one trade may be rendered useless. Post 6 page 1.

3) EA aided traders may be hindered; EAs can often trade more than one trade at a time, that is can trade in both directions. If this happens the one currency pair in MT5 the position will be nulled into one. Possibly at a loss.

4) Multiple EA traders are stuffed: if traded on the same forex pair. Post 16 Post 19, page 2.

5) Counter trend traders are hindered partly due to OCO possible ommission: The original trend trade will be cancelled or reduced to a single position by an opposing trade. Hence a solution is to wait for another trend trade, whenever that may occur, or make a prediction for a re-entry which adds to risk Post 11 page 1.

6)Market Depth is a VERY good feature: Post 17 page 2. But market depth in forex is unlikely to be as good as market depth in other markets. As the sale of money to make money would give the tactics of the big banks. As the big banks make up 79.61% of the market, the market depth that MT5 brokers will be giving will be many times better than present but not as good as other markets. Post 50 page 4.

7) Martingale Strategies: In the scaling up and scaling down idea there will be no problems, in the fact that most MT4 Martingale systems used scaling up and down in both directions, so that trades would be taken as one overall position yes they are hindered. As take profit of trades in the wrong direction may have to be taken early. Posts on page 3

8) MT4 styled code for OCO: Hanover supplies useful code. Post 42 page 3.

9) Normally a single net order can replicate all other orders exactly, but NOT always: "Any scenario at any given point is ultimately nothing more than a net position, and can be replicated by a single order" said by commenter. "But Not true. There are scenarios when the market can be moving so fast that it can hit both your buy and sell orders and you can tp on the server for both before you have a chance to put in another order." Each post is on page 3 post 44 and 4 and post post 52 Market position means nothing if your balance is going down because of it.

10) Best option if we only have MT5 brokers: Best is to have multiple accounts with different brokers or sub accts with the same broker if they allow you to pursue your strategies effectively. Post 19 Page 2.


Updated 21st June, 2009

11) Two links given about MQL5 coding in MT5: Excellence in coding environment, code execution speed, code similarity to C++, code debugging and coding versatility are emphasised. However the one thing that do suggest is significantly different (they don't suggest bad of course) is what this thread deals about, with this quote from one of those 2 links, "Q: What is the syntax's difference between MQL4 and MQL5? A: It may be difference between OrderSend (MQL4) and OrderSend (MQL5) function calls. But this is no matter of MQL5 syntax - it is just feature of Metatrader 5 trading platform." In other words the programming could handle MT4 tradering, if MT5 brokers could enable the platform to do so. Page 5 post 66.


Updated 2nd July, 2009

12) MQL5 would be backwards compatible if MT5 developers wanted it to be: OOP is a supplemental programming paradigm, not a different one. C++ is designed to be backwards compatable with ANSI C. No, this was done for the brokers not the traders.... ... So just to clarify for a hack programmer, MQL5 would be backwards compatible with MQL4 if metatrader developers were wanting to make it so????... ...Yes, there is no excuse in regards to language compatibility.... Page 5 Posts 73 to 75.

13) MQ and MT5 brokers can read a traders source code -- Viscious rumour or a debunking truth: I would ask Metaquotes and the MT5 broker to give a legal guarantee that this is not true and also ask metaquotes to post a formal reply on this forum thread, I want this thread to be accurate so I will change this update when you do Thank you... page 6 post 81


Updated 6th July 2009

14) FIFO ruling affects the MT4 platform operations: Hinted at not being able to set a take profit and stop loss at the same time on the same overall trade, all because of the way MT4 handles the trade operations behind the scenes. Page 8, post #114.


Updated 15th October 2009
Tadawul fx FF member Onu, states that a response by Tadawul fx is that, Tadawul fx will not change to MT5 as MT4 is better posted on this link.

MT4 Brokers / MT5 Broker Free List

Do you know of another (non-MT5 broker) MT4 broker NOT regulated by NFA? Reply to the thread.
Here is a list of MT4 brokers that have not downgraded to being MT5 brokers and can therefore allow counter trend trading without the added difficulties. I am afraid that the NFA trade rules have a similar inhibitor. Hence there are no USA registered brokers, sorry about that. I will endeavour to keep this MT4 broker list free of any MT5 broker:


I do not know the credibility of any of these firms or if they are actually registered in the countries that they are based in. However, all I am doing is putting a list together to give people options that do not involve MT5 Brokers. If there are errors please feel free to post corrections. If you know of other MT4 brokers with no indication of heading towards MT5 please post with brokers name and country.

Australia
FXCM Australia forextrading.com.au
AxisODL
ForexFS-Forex Financial Services
GOMarketsaus.com

Belize
GCI Financial
Global Clearing Group

British Virgin Islands
e-Global Trade & Finance Group
MBCFX-Multiple Banks Clearing
Neuimex
Real Trade Group

Canada
FX Clearing
InvestTechFX

Cyprus
FCMarket
FXPro.com
GIGFX
LiteForex
Prime4x
Windsor Brokers

German
Varengold Bank FX
direktbroker.de / possibly linked to Trading-House.net

Kuwait
Arab Financial Brokers (K.S.C.C)
Swiss International (are actually based in Kuwait, I think)

New Zealand
KVB Kunlun(Registered in NewZealand and Hong Kong, Chinese owned)
LatitudeFX

Russia
BroCo
Forex4you
InstaForex
EuroForex
Exness

Switzerland
C.I.M Banque
Fibo Group
Masterforex
MIG Investments
SFXB-SwissFXBroker GmbH
TadawulFX

Ukraine
Fin Market
Forex Ukraine

United Arab Emirates
GTL Trading
NTWO Capital Markets
PronetFX (ecn)
Uni-FX
FXCBS

United Kingdom
ActivTrades
Admiral Markets
Alpari UK
Foreign Exchange Clearing House(FXCH)
Forex
FXM Financial Group
FXCM England www.fxcm.co.uk/
ODLMarkets
Murphy&Williams Financial Group
TradersvoiceFX (also have a USA possibly NFA regulated, unless the British base is registered separately to the US base)
Pro Finance Group Inc (PFGFX)

USA
IBFX seem to have found a work around the NFA whilst still complying, there are some trade recording difficulties attached though. Page 9 Post 121.
The Collective FX - Have no need for registration as they do not trade against their clients. Completely ecn without any substantial fees.
MBTrading - Although based on the west coast of USA, do not say who they are registered with the NFA or not. But as they do not trade against their clients they do not require registration.

Other Countries or Unsure of which country.
FXcast
FXOpen
Gallant FX They are GMT +1, unsure of who owns them. Linked to Sunspot Capital for funds holding. Their MT4 platform allows heding which implies that they are not NFA related.
Pro-Forex
Varengold Bank FX
Taurus Global Markets(TGM)
Forex Metal
X-Trade Brokers
Global Forex Now
FX Trading
Alma Forex
NordMarkets (ecn) info on the broker Post 102 page 7, and page 8 post 107
ODL Japan www.odls.co.jp/

If you know of an MT4 broker that is not on this list and has no plans to downgrade to being an MT5 broker, just add a comment at the end of this thread. I will try to update this MT5 broker free list...
To be fair there is a link in post #3 where I read the about MT5.



This is who I believe are NFA regulated brokers. Because they are NFA regulated this means they are more likely to want to be MT5 brokers. Hence whether they have MT4 or MT5 makes little difference:
Alpari US LLC
Apex FX Trading
FastBrokersFX
Forex Trading Edge
Forex.com
FXCM
FXDD
FXLite work with FXDD and their registration with the NFA is pending.
Global Futures Exchange & Trading Co., Inc.
IBFX - Interbank FX
IKON GM Royal Division
OneCorpFX - OCFX
PFGBEST
Tradeview Forex

Diagrams below hopefully explain what I said above

Here is the review that I read.
http://www.fx1618.com/mt4/mt5-a.html

And the picture below that they use says what I said above. Except they say it nicely.

i prefer the new style

Sounds to me like the MetaTrader 5 will comply with the new NFA regulation prohiting "hedging". I don't know if you obtained your copy in the US or abroad but this would be interesting to see if it is different for Alpari customers in the UK and the US for example.

As stupid as it may be, the NFA has passed the law and we in the US are stuck with it. Yet another shining example of the goverment's predeliction to "protect" us from ourselves. It makes me ashamed to call myself American.

I am glad that someone likes it.

The new style can be good if you do not have both a long term and short term strategy.

I have a 5 min strategy, 1 hour strategy and 4 hour strategy.

The 5 minute strategy is good at picking counter trends.

Hence to have to cancel any trades that I made on my other two strategies to eventually re-enter really sucks.

I also just thought of, that EAs often trade differently to manual trading.

So if a trader uses an EA and a manual method, that trades could quite often need to cancel each other out. As EAs tend to be very mechanical, getting the EA to make a re-entry after its trade has been cancelled would be a pain in the butt also.

So EA aided traders are hindered as well, which sort of destroys the purpose of EA creation for MT5.

What about trading different positions with different brokers to accomplish your trading style...

I like this new type of position handling, since I don't have opposite trades in the same instrument that I trade. Sometimes I open more than one position in the same direction and MT5 will make it easier to close all positions at the same time.

Or if I am 1 lot long and would like to close that position and go short 1 lot, I can go short 2 lots instead.

But I can understand that some don't like this new method.

One account for buying and one account for selling is a possibility.

But you then lose your leverage...

Then also the greater questions really becomes then:

That because it is achievable via 2 seperate accounts, why have MetaStealerTrader 5 people deliberately reduced the functionality of the new platform?

Is it to benefit the broker or the trader?

Well it makes more money for the broker, and makes it more difficult for the trader to achieve the same result.

Somehow I don't think its the trader that it benefits.

They implemented market depth also, so this pushes this platform more into the direction of a professional trading platform, don't you think?

I find it sad that some (many?) Metatrader brokers have such a bad image - and this will often be associated with the platform itself. I hope this will change in future and solid brokers like MB Trading, Deutsche Bank and others will offer this platform under fair conditions.

Very good for market depth (it's a great tool), and i still don't understand why people like soo much hedge, it's exactly useless.

What i'm looking to explain with the image, is that you don't need to make 3 operations instead of 2, the costs are the same, the broker don't have any benefit from proibith hedging (and the trader havn't any benefit too, heding his positions).

I love your catch... Don't underestimate trend powah....

But part of my point is that you would be required to be there for the re-entry into the long like what you have, or be required to make a prediction about re-entry.

You are totally right about what it does, as a workng scenario....

But shouldn't I be allowed to trade what I can see now?

Not just what I can predict in the future... I actually should be allowed to trade both scenarios and make more of that money that buys me my BLING.

Again I know that your scenario works, but only if you know how to do counter trend trade, do you get the full benefit of intraday price movements. This cancels that out, this new MT5 single position trade setup cancels that out to a small degree but to a degree nonetheless.

And yes I do agree that market depth does definitely add to the realm of MT.

The Reason Why People Like To "Nedge" (Newbie Hedging)

Put simply is that expands trading opportunity via easier timing or easier trade entry. Yes I call it nedging because many newbie traders see it as a way of preventing a stop/loss, when really for them it becomes a giant loss in the end.

However, a counter trend trader sees it as an opportunity to make more dollars, without time restriction / prediction or without price re-entry prediction / restriction.







For trading we know that 3 things are all that count:

1. Price entry.
2. Price Exit.
3. Timing for both.

Non-hedging scenario that you propose REQUIRES prediction of price entry, or it REQUIRES the timing factor to be there that is not the SELL trade in our little simple scenario.



FIRST BENEFIT

While the nedger, if s/he by chance happens to be present for the nedge (SELL trade) s/he takes that trade.

But this counter trend trade (nedge, SELLTRADE) does NOT close his/her longer term goal, of the long term trade.

Hence there is no requirement of the time factor or price prediction factor to re-enter into the long term BUY signal as it was still an open trade.



SECOND BENEFIT

What you do with trend trading is still an option for me. I can do it and I do.

Assume that I was around for the counter trend SELL trade and I took the SELL position. There is nothing stopping me from doing what you do with trend trading and adding to my position at the * re-entry BUY point (so long as I can handle the risk exposure).

Again I was there so I took the trade, no price prediction or timing prediction was needed.



THIRD BENEFIT
(If I can NOT handle the risk exposure)
Those that have been trading for a quite a while also know, that predicting price re-entry is not always accurate. Hence placing a pending BUY LIMIT order at the * point will not always work. So the SELL becomes a loss.

However, because MetaStealerTrader5 is not bringing the functionality of an OCO, the pending BUY STOP was never placed hence you loss out on the longer term trade as well.

Hence the MetaStealerTrader5 reduced functionality in this area is nothing short of pathetic.


Conclusion
Counter trend trading at YOUR CHOSEN TIME instead of trend trading at the markets chosen time enlarges your trading capacity.

It is the reason why I went with an Australian broker instead of USA broker. But NOW if my present broker ""upgrades"" to MetaStealerTrader 5 I'll have to find another broker again.

I CAN'T TRADE AT THE TIME I CHOSE WITHOUT ONE OF:
ADDITIONAL TIME REQUIREMENT.
ADDITIONAL PRICE PREDICTION.
ADDITIONAL SPREADS OR COMMISSIONS BEING PAID.
ADDITIONAL RISK EXPOSURE TO A GREATER LOSS.
EAs BEING INHIBITED IF YOU ARE A MANUAL TRADER AS WELL (fourth BENEFIT if you were allowed).

Do NOT trade with MetaSTEALERTrader 5, because it will eventually steal from you because of one the above factors.

In addition to this we must remember that MetaQuotes does not work on behalf of the trader (neither does any platform development company).

They work on behalf of the broker, so if they can reduce the profitability of the trader / increase the profitability of the retail broker, then they will do that. This is the reason why programming for MQL5 is not backwards compatible with MQL4, or a service for translation is not offered. This would help the trader as opposed to the broker.

This elimination of functionality was not because it helps the trader, it was because it helps the broker,
otherwise brokers would not want / buy MetaSTEALERTrader 5.

Hedging is great when you're trading tightly inside the spread and won't be able to get in another trade before the market moves on you both ways. You can simulate this with multiple accounts, however that significantly increases the complexity of your trading accounting / systems.

One thing that this new version 5 could prevent to the disadvantage of traders is those traders that use multiple EAs for different types of market behavior could be taken out of a trade because one EA could over ride the other's trade.

For example, if one has a trending EA that is long on a 4 hour chart and also a scalping or counter EA that is short on a 5 minute chart would one cancel out the other? If so, this would definitely not be good for a trader that uses such a system...Comments?

Thats a very good feature. My broker has to supply a separate market depth application to go with the ECN pricing on MT4. I'll wait to see how well it is integrated into MT5 before I comment on it though.

Exactly....

This one position trading totally ruins the use of multiple EAs or the use of EAs with manual trading.

It significantly takes away from the purpose of using meta trader.

Inability to use EAs properly, equals there are many better trading platforms that can be used such as GFT's, Oanda's, SaxoBank's platform.

If my broker downgrades to Meta-STEALER-Trader 5 platform, I'll be switching brokers very quickly.

However, as OakMonster said, Market Depth is so important especially if your a pattern trader or large volume trader.

@ pnf-trader I believe you are so right. The MT4 platform is the most useful platform to me because:

1. the indicators, EAs and scripts have a large programming base (hence you can sort through the rubbish to get some good stuff)

2. different indicators can be displayed on different timeframes (hence I can have all 3 strategies on the one chart) which is something that not all platforms have.

3. You can also place your market order and t/p or s/l orders all in go which is something that not all platforms have.

But to have a function that can be used to improve trading, and then remove it, is seriously STUPID.
What are Meta-STEALER-Trader 5 creators thinking?

There's a couple things to think about here...

1. if you have an ea that trades one position at a time you are not affected.

2. if you have multiple ea that counter trade each other then you could be screwed, but what if the broker allows you to open a sub account for your counter trading....possibility?

3. if you are using ea's completely automated then going to oanda or saxo or others will not do you any good.

4. Best is to have multiple accounts with different brokers or sub accts with the same broker if they allow you to pursue your strategies effectively.

The reason why MT4 EAs will not be working anymore is because of a different programming paradigm. They have implemented OOP, object oriented programming. Also, if the order execution has changed, this makes EAs incompatible.

@oakmonster:
I wanted to write you a PM, but that's not possible. May I ask which broker you use?