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MB Trading Futures - Introduction

  • #10,041
  • Nov 17, 2012 7:17pm Nov 17, 2012 7:17pm
Quoting jleblang
Suprasense,

... none of our liquidity providers are allowed any Last Look.
(sigh)
  • #10,042
  • Nov 17, 2012 10:19pm Nov 17, 2012 10:19pm
Quoting SupraSense
jleblang, would MB Trading consider removing this 'last look' for liquidity providers? Personally, it would be a bigger selling point than the pay for limit orders.
Sigh. Didn't he already say that they didn't have a last look? So how can they remove something they don't have? You people are dense.
  • #10,043
  • Nov 17, 2012 11:15pm Nov 17, 2012 11:15pm
Quoting jleblang
RoBiK,
If that is not the best price available, then the order is routed out to whichever bank or LP has the best price at the time via a Fill or Kill option with no chance to hold the order. If they fill, the execution occurs. If they send back a Kill, then our Order Server re-snapshots and makes a new decision about where to route the trade.
I could care less about semantics..... this is what we are discussing.
  • #10,044
  • Nov 17, 2012 11:25pm Nov 17, 2012 11:25pm
Quoting SupraSense
....I have heard of LMAX ....

Sadly, in Obama's America American's have lost the freedom to have accounts anywhere other than Obama's America.

This has effectively limited competition among FX broker's to such an extent that I fear many of the gains made in legitimizing this market, many pioneered by MB Trading, become less and less important for brokers to offer as traders have no where else to go.

FXCM has brought back its deal desk in what smells like a trial balloon for example.

I hope that someday, someone will exploit this angle to garner business. But it may just result in wider spreads or fees on each and every order wiping out any gains in much the same way as the futures option does today.
  • #10,045
  • Nov 17, 2012 11:58pm Nov 17, 2012 11:58pm
Justin,

sorry for beeing lazy to check your page...

I am looking for a broker and reside in AUS. Is MBtrading accepting customers from AU? If yes, what is the best setup? Do you have other customers from AU? How is safety of funds for au residents?

thanks
  • #10,046
  • Edited 6:23am Nov 18, 2012 6:12am | Edited 6:23am
Discussing this... and with the chance that I will be told that-
" I do not know what I am talking about or belittled because I trade with too little frequency..."

Quoting jleblang
“Order matching” is between customers and handled on our EXN servers. If that is the best pricing for an order, then that is how the execution occurs because it is the fastest and in-house. If that is not the best price available, then the order is routed out to whichever bank or LP has the best price at the time via a Fill or Kill option with no chance to hold the order.

I will state again .... people underestimate the high-frequency component of market-making algorithms or the impact of
the high-frequency "customers" in this non-exchange marketplace.

Things simply move to fast, with many large players (some high-frequency)... for a liquidity provider to not be able to "kill"
an order in milliseconds. SupraSenses's delay of seconds when a Stop is run, as it becomes a Market order... could happen in
highly volatile situations...as 'everyone' (not just MB's liquidity providers) back away from the market situation.

On high ATR mornings with low liquidity, you can easily have 15 pip plus price spikes that happen in 3 seconds
(with no news) as liquidity dries up. (Feb 2012 was like this, US-London overlap)

This spike shows on every platform (not just MBs).... it's there on IBs, Oanda's, Alpari's, etc.

No liquidity provider will stand in front of a high-frequency "freight train" coming at them. When Oanda mysteriously loses connection during some NFPs, I truly believe that their major liquidity providers just refuse to take their electronic order flow during that situation.

I left a Nasdaq market-making desk at a regional brokerage to trade a proprietary account in 1996.
I made a killing for 4 or so years.

After reading Scott Patterson's Dark Pools published this year, I realize now how prevalent high-frequency had become
in equities even as early as 2000.

As it is hinted at now, some predict as much as 40% of the volume of forex is HF.
It has to be considered. It affects your quotes and executions.
It is also still quite beatable with brokers like MB Trading.
  • #10,047
  • Nov 18, 2012 6:32am Nov 18, 2012 6:32am
Quoting Intu

No liquidity provider will stand in front of a high-frequency "freight train" coming at them.
No LP would want to if they can enjoy the tilted playing field they do now. However all we are hoping for is exactly the execution that happens every minute of every hour of every day that currency futures trade. It is not impossible, and I dare say given time competition will make it the norm.

The current model removes an element risk for the LP, and places it entirely on the trader. As I stated above, one component of that decreased risk the LPs currently enjoy likely results in a lower spread than is seen in the futures market for the same pair at the same time. It seems logical that someone has to take that risk, and be compensated for it.

Competition however has a way of lowering costs to consumers as suppliers scramble to maintain market share. If brokers and matching services adopt a no last look model to gain market share by touting a better model, over time the costs will come down as the LPs find that they they either have to accept the no last look the terms, or stand by and watch another competitor take what they refused to agree to.
  • #10,048
  • Nov 18, 2012 8:30am Nov 18, 2012 8:30am
Sorry Intu, I didn't mean to offend you. It just seems that some people are dismissive of any complaints, despite those claims actually being valid, and it makes their motives a little suspicious. After all, which trader would rather the playing field remained unfair, and argue with those who ask for improvement and clarity on how orders are handled? Whether some traders find this issue important for their trading is another issue, but still, every one should want clarity and fairness. That's why we have exchanges with clear rules to trade on.

I don't mind spikes, I don't mind people withdrawing liquidity. Every time there is important news the spread can widen, liquidity is withdrawn. Fast moving markets, slippage is expected, again no problem with this. This is normal market behaviour. All I ask is that what is seen is really there to trade upon.

It is no good having an advertised .5 pip spread, with 2 million on bid and ask, and millions more a pip higher either side, if I can't execute a 100k order by placing a market order. If I do, and this is rejected by the liquidity provider, then the spread wasn't actually .5 pips, and the liquidity wasn't there. Just an illusion. jleblang has said if another client was on the opposite side, my oder would be matched with theirs. As Crassius points out, it is not a fair playing field, one rule for one, one rule for another, the liquidity providers have an advantage that the trader doesn't.



Quoting Intu
Discussing this... and with the chance that I will be told that-
" I do not know what I am talking about or belittled because I trade with too little frequency..."




I will state again .... people underestimate the high-frequency component of market-making algorithms or the impact of
the high-frequency "customers" in this non-exchange marketplace.

Things simply move to fast, with many large players (some high-frequency)... for a liquidity provider to not be able to "kill"
an order in milliseconds. SupraSenses's delay of seconds when...
  • #10,049
  • Nov 18, 2012 8:34pm Nov 18, 2012 8:34pm
Thanks SupraSense... no offense taken.

Crassius, I'm with you... too.
While there are some advantages for smaller accounts,
we are definitely disadvantaged compared to exchange traded futures in many ways,

I do like the discussion, hopefully there is opportunity for more change in our favor.
  • #10,050
  • Nov 19, 2012 8:45am Nov 19, 2012 8:45am
I will definately not recommend MBT to anyone. I have had many issues with them which I have never had with anybody else (slow execution, lagging prices) and finally pretty bad slippage. Last week I had 15 pips slippage with my stop order and today when there was low volatility, I received 5, 3 and 2 pips slippage in my stop orders.

Personally I am extremely disapointed to MBT. I did expect a lot more than I received.
  • #10,051
  • Nov 19, 2012 8:57am Nov 19, 2012 8:57am
Damn I'm frustrated with my US broker selection! The only good option for 10k+ I know is CitiFxPro, and for smaller accounts I like Oanda, but running EAs via MT4 on it is too dangerous. Then I read of other brokers like ATC brokers and MB Trading and hear of all these slippage problems and server outages! So despite all my looking around I can't find a decent solution.
  • #10,052
  • Nov 19, 2012 9:06am Nov 19, 2012 9:06am
Quoting Fx93
Damn I'm frustrated with my US broker selection! The only good option for 10k+ I know is CitiFxPro, and for smaller accounts I like Oanda, but running EAs via MT4 on it is too dangerous. Then I read of other brokers like ATC brokers and MB Trading and hear of all these slippage problems and server outages! So despite all my looking around I can't find a decent solution.
TRY IBFX.COM
  • #10,053
  • Nov 19, 2012 9:46am Nov 19, 2012 9:46am
Quoting kalastaja
I will definately not recommend MBT to anyone. I have had many issues with them which I have never had with anybody else (slow execution, lagging prices) and finally pretty bad slippage. Last week I had 15 pips slippage with my stop order and today when there was low volatility, I received 5, 3 and 2 pips slippage in my stop orders.

Personally I am extremely disapointed to MBT. I did expect a lot more than I received.
I am very surprised of all this negative comments about MBT execution and slippage.
Believe me or not, but I place hundreds of orders a day, thru the API, and I have a VPS hosting. When I analyze all my executed orders, I see that price improvement is very frequent and slippage is always due to fast market conditions. It takes 200ms for an average order from my submission to be live on MBT server (on a PFL account), and during high volatility, prices can move a lot within 200ms !
Of course, like everywhere else, there are sometimes some issues, but for now, the support and the order desk always had a solution for me.
As Justin said before, a bad internet connection may explain a lot of issues. You should try VPS hosting.
  • #10,054
  • Nov 19, 2012 10:13am Nov 19, 2012 10:13am
Quoting tradeoffice
I am very surprised of all this negative comments about MBT execution and slippage.
Believe me or not, but I place hundreds of orders a day, thru the API, and I have a VPS hosting. When I analyze all my executed orders, I see that price improvement is very frequent and slippage is always due to fast market conditions. It takes 200ms for an average order from my submission to be live on MBT server (on a PFL account), and during high volatility, prices can move a lot within 200ms !
Of course, like everywhere else, there are sometimes some issues,...
I am glad to hear that for you everything works fine. My experience is opposite and the replies I have received from MBT to my complains unfortunatelly just confirms my toughts.

Problems I have experienced are definatelly not because of bad internet. My other platforms work fine and for limit orders, I can't see how internet connection could have any effect anyway. It's also funny how it is impossible to receive positive slippage...
  • #10,055
  • Nov 19, 2012 10:20am Nov 19, 2012 10:20am
Quoting kalastaja
It's also funny how it is impossible to receive positive slippage...

When you exaggerate to this extent, which is simply not true, impossible to be true... you bring into doubt the validity of everything you say here.
  • #10,056
  • Nov 19, 2012 10:24am Nov 19, 2012 10:24am
Quoting kalastaja
I am glad to hear that for you everything works fine. My experience is opposite and the replies I have received from MBT to my complains unfortunatelly just confirms my toughts.

Problems I have experienced are definatelly not because of bad internet. My other platforms work fine and for limit orders, I can't see how internet connection could have any effect anyway. It's also funny how it is impossible to receive positive slippage...
For example in the last 3 hours, on EUR/USD, I traded 477 000 EUR, exclusively with limit orders. I received a total price improvement of $4.98 (difference between my limit price and the price I got).
  • #10,057
  • Nov 19, 2012 10:46am Nov 19, 2012 10:46am
Quoting tradeoffice
For example in the last 3 hours, on EUR/USD, I traded 477 000 EUR, exclusively with limit orders. I received a total price improvement of $4.98 (difference between my limit price and the price I got).
Like I said, I am glad it works for you, would like to be in a same position.
  • #10,058
  • Nov 19, 2012 1:11pm Nov 19, 2012 1:11pm
Quoting kalastaja
I am glad to hear that for you everything works fine. My experience is opposite and the replies I have received from MBT to my complains unfortunatelly just confirms my toughts.

Problems I have experienced are definatelly not because of bad internet. My other platforms work fine and for limit orders, I can't see how internet connection could have any effect anyway. It's also funny how it is impossible to receive positive slippage...
Well although I'm critical of some things with MB Trading, what you say is not true.

I do get positive slippage. When you mention positive slippage, are you putting in limit orders? You can't expect positive slippage on a stop order. Trade with limits and you will get positiv slippage.

MB Trading is far from the worst outfits out there. With a few improvements, they could be really great. WIthout those improvements, I'm moving elsewhere.
  • #10,059
  • Nov 19, 2012 1:16pm Nov 19, 2012 1:16pm
Im curious on ppl's thoughts on a more integrated Webinar or educational side. I looked to wiki although its not so active. I like FXCM and other brokers and they show strategies or simple webinars on learning forex more or more advanced strategies. For those who are newer do you guys think this would improve mbtrading or is it's their tech side that is frustrating. I recently opened an account with them and this is one thing I noticed they did not have so much as opposed to other brokers. I also have a Think or swim account for Currency futures and their Trade school or after market trader lounge chats are great. Thoughts on this from other mb traders?
  • #10,060
  • Nov 20, 2012 8:43am Nov 20, 2012 8:43am
Justin,

The latest version of MBT Mobile fixed any issues I was having, specifically needing to log out and log in to modify any orders. The login seems to be much quicker as well.

Thanks,
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