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  • #621
  • May 8, 2012 11:12pm May 8, 2012 11:12pm
Quoting thelws
We need more discussion using the top half of the pyramid. Less of the bottom half. I reckon this chart needs to be stickied somewhere lol

http://postimage.org/image/oeqzuph23/http://s17.postimage.org/oeqzuph23/3...nt_pyramid.jpg

Stating your experience is no better than ad hominem. True substance can offer refutation

People don't produce maths arguments for fun. It is so that we know whatever we say can actually be backed up with some kind of evidence....

, and a great pyramid!
  • #622
  • May 8, 2012 11:17pm May 8, 2012 11:17pm
Quoting Binyamin
Fare reply NNbob. Good to know.

Anyway. I know of a few professional swing traders that always trade without a SL, they use mental SL. They do that to avoid SL hunting.

I know this is a weak argument but what I am trying to say is, I am testifying that there are people in the market making a lot of money consistently for many years and not using SL.
My position has been and has been for years is I use a percentage instead of a fixed number. It works very well. People who use mental losses usually are scalpers and are right there at the screen or low leverage traders who play wide berths like I do. If the computer programs cant SL you out or margin you out you have leveled the playing field with them and they cant hurt you. News spikes cant hurt your either or other anomalies. There are a lot of benefits to it unless you are a high leverage and/or large lot size to account size trader then you have no choice but use a SL. So it really comes down to what kind of trader you are. The guys who trade the fundamentals with large sums dont use SL either. They know what turns the markets long term so they will ride a trade for months on end until that base fundamental changes. No need for SL they know where price is going long term.
  • #623
  • May 8, 2012 11:23pm May 8, 2012 11:23pm
It's been explained to you and others numerous times but you still fail to grasp the simple concept that if, with the same currency, you buy something and sell an equal quantity of the same thing then in effect you have.....nothing!

[/quote]
This seems to contradict what was indicated previously. One of the points made was that swap is paid. How do you pay swap on nothing? You have two positions that could be closed at different times. Once you close one position, how do you have nothing?
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
  • #624
  • May 8, 2012 11:28pm May 8, 2012 11:28pm
Well BueSteele made a Jackass of himself in my thread so I banned him. I will do it to Pipmutt too. Too bad I know I cant trust those guys to act like civilized human beings. Bottom line you either act like an adult or get cut off.

Hedging dont do it but all you have to do is show one time it has value and it is worth while. It would not exist nor be used by banks, companies and brokers if it didnt have some kind of value. So that ends the discussion right there. I have proven beyond any shadow of doubt it has a viable use in certain conditions. That is all I had to do. Pippy enjoy your rope, maybe you can chew on it for a while and cut yourself down from the tree.
  • #625
  • May 8, 2012 11:31pm May 8, 2012 11:31pm
Quoting pa_pips

This seems to contradict what was indicated previously. One of the points made was that swap is paid. How do you pay swap on nothing?
lol ok then, less than nothing! A liability without an asset.


Quoting pa_pips

You have two positions that could be closed at different times. Once you close one position, how do you have nothing?
Exactly, once you close one side of the nedge you then have exposure, up until then you are effectively flat!
  • #626
  • May 8, 2012 11:33pm May 8, 2012 11:33pm
Quoting pipmutt
A bit obtuse but ok, less than nothing!
If you had two positions, close one position, how is this less than nothing?
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
  • #627
  • May 8, 2012 11:38pm May 8, 2012 11:38pm
Quoting nanningbob

Well BueSteele made a Jackass of himself in my thread so I banned him. I will do it to Pipmutt too.
Your thread? Why on earth would I want to post in your thread?


Quoting nanningbob

Hedging dont do it but all you have to do is show one time it has value and it is worth while. It would not exist nor be used by banks, companies and brokers if it didnt have some kind of value. So that ends the discussion right there. I have proven beyond any shadow of doubt it has a viable use in certain conditions. That is all I had to do. Pippy enjoy your rope, maybe you can chew on it for a while and cut yourself down from the tree.
Hedging yes, nedging no. You're nedging, not hedging.
  • #628
  • May 8, 2012 11:40pm May 8, 2012 11:40pm
Quoting pa_pips
It's been explained to you and others numerous times but you still fail to grasp the simple concept that if, with the same currency, you buy something and sell an equal quantity of the same thing then in effect you have.....nothing!
This seems to contradict what was indicated previously. One of the points made was that swap is paid. How do you pay swap on nothing? You have two positions that could be closed at different times. Once you close one position, how do you have nothing?[/quote]

No........ wrong, you do have something, you have 1 sell trade and 1 buy trade. The success or failure of the two trades will depend on when and where you close them. What fails to dawn on this stupid argument and I have pointed this over and over again. When you close the trades is the over all value of the trades determined. If trade buy is closed at +50 pips and price reverses and you close Sell at +25 pips it is not a nothing. It is +75 pips in the bank. That is the fallacy of your argument, you falsely think and assume the trades will never be broken at some point. This false assumption leads to wrong conclusions. Both sides of the hedge can be made profitable and this is especially true in a ranging market. I am sure someone out there probably trades like that but I dont know.
  • #629
  • May 8, 2012 11:41pm May 8, 2012 11:41pm
Quoting pa_pips

If you had two positions, close one position, how is this less than nothing?
As I already posted, only once you close one side of the nedge do you then have exposure, up until then you are effectively flat.

Less than nothing referred to interest on a nedge.

Anyway this has been discussed a million times before in this and other threads, but the logic and basic math seem too difficult for some people to understand!
  • #630
  • May 8, 2012 11:51pm May 8, 2012 11:51pm
Quoting nanningbob

you falsely think and assume the trades will never be broken at some point.
It's not until one side of the nedge is closed that you have exposure. No exposure, no profit/loss (apart from interest), so what's the point of doing it?

This has already been explained to you numerous times, with examples, diagrams, pictures, graphs, charts....but still you don't get it!

Never mind Bob, as long as you're happy.
  • #631
  • May 8, 2012 11:54pm May 8, 2012 11:54pm
Quoting pipmutt
As I already posted, only once you close one side of the nedge do you then have exposure, up until then you are effectively flat.

Less than nothing referred to interest on a nedge.

Anyway this has been discussed a million times before in this and other threads, but the logic and basic math seem too difficult for some people to understand!
Yes, difficult to understand the logic. So you open your one position with stop loss, you go in drawdown lets say -50 pips for argument sake with 100 pip stop loss. You have less than nothing, because you have a negative position and pay swap in the mean time based on your kind of reasoning.

From my perspective you do not have nothing. Who is to say you did not close both positions at a profit at some time or for that matter one in a loss, but the other at a profit than more than compensate for the loss?
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
  • #632
  • Edited 12:13am May 9, 2012 12:00am | Edited 12:13am
Quoting pa_pips

Who is to say you did not close both positions at a profit at some time or for that matter one in a loss, but the other at a profit than more than compensate for the loss?
It's not until one side of the nedge is closed/reduced that you have exposure. No exposure, no profit/loss (apart from interest), so what's the point of doing it?

This has already been explained numerous times, with examples, diagrams, pictures, graphs, charts....it's probably all in this thread somewhere, just seek and ye shall find!
  • #633
  • May 9, 2012 12:17am May 9, 2012 12:17am
Quoting pipmutt
It's not until one side of the nedge is closed that you have exposure. No exposure, no profit/loss (apart from interest), so what's the point of doing it?

This has already been explained numerous times, with examples, diagrams, pictures, graphs, charts....it's probably all in this thread somewhere, just seek and ye shall find!
You will have to consider context to come up with reasons. Does not make sense to hammer on an issue in isolation. Some things that do not make sense in isolation, makes plenty of sense once seen in context. How can one component of a strategy take on more importance than the whole strategy? It is kind of seeing the tree and ignoring the forest. Graeme's building an equity millipede is one example, that I already mentioned.
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
  • #634
  • May 9, 2012 12:30am May 9, 2012 12:30am
Quoting pa_pips

Some things that do not make sense in isolation, makes plenty of sense once seen in context.
Some things yes, just not this thing. It's extremely clear, unambiguous, and easily demonstrated.

Sorry there's simply no way to escape it, net long, net short, or flat.


Quoting pa_pips

How can one component of a strategy take on more importance than the whole strategy?
Because if one significant component is flawed it undermines the whole.
  • #635
  • Edited 1:13am May 9, 2012 1:07am | Edited 1:13am
Quoting pipmutt
Some things yes, just not this thing. It's extremely clear, unambiguous, and easily demonstrated.

Sorry there's simply no way to escape it, net long, net short, or flat.
Yes, if you take a static view i.e. at one point in time. A dynamic view, a whole different ball game. Point is, we live in a dynamic world, not a static one.
Quoting pipmutt
Because if one significant component is flawed it undermines the whole.
Show me the flaw in having locked in 2900 pips profit by being short on EurUsd at 1.59 and long at 1.20.
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
  • #636
  • May 9, 2012 1:40am May 9, 2012 1:40am
Quoting pa_pips

Yes, if you take a static view i.e. at one point in time. A dynamic view, a whole different ball game. Point is, we live in a dynamic world, not a static one.
lol, a nice bit of smoke but unfortunately it doesn't change fact. Dynamic, static, context, isolation.....you're still left with the same net long, net short, or flat, you simple can't escape that fact.


Quoting pa_pips

Show me the flaw in having locked in 2900 pips profit by being short on EurUsd at 1.59 and long at 1.20.
It would be hard to say without having more details.
  • #637
  • May 9, 2012 1:58am May 9, 2012 1:58am
Quote
Show me the flaw in having locked in 2900 pips profit by being short on EurUsd at 1.59 and long at 1.20.

Let me put a twist in your thinking by asking you this question:
If you can show me the benefit of locking in -2900 pips of floating loss by being long on EurUsd at 1.59 and short at 1.20,

I will show you the benefit of locking in 2900 pips by being short on EurUsd at 1.59 and long at 1.20.

If you still don't catch my drift... the benefit of both would be the same. And for the most part it will be a psychological benefit. But if it is about monetary terms, then there is no benefit.
  • #638
  • May 9, 2012 2:05am May 9, 2012 2:05am
Quoting pipmutt
lol, a nice bit of smoke but unfortunately it doesn't change fact. Dynamic, static, context, isolation.....you're still left with the same net long, net short, or flat, you simple can't escape that fact.
I fail to comprehend what value your point has. It states the obvious, which means absolute nothing if context is not considered. I mean is profits / losses not made precisely due to the dynamic nature of fluctuating between these various states?



Quoting pipmutt
It would be hard to say without having more details.
Precisely why I say ignore context at your own peril. As they say, the devil is in the details
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
  • #639
  • Edited 2:28am May 9, 2012 2:15am | Edited 2:28am
Quoting pa_pips

I fail to comprehend what value your point has. It states the obvious, which means absolute nothing if context is not considered.
It may well be stating the obvious but it seems the obvious isn't so obvious to some people! Net short/long is a fact, regardless of context. You can create as many scenarios as you want but it's not going to change anything.


Quoting pa_pips

I mean is profits / losses not made precisely due to the dynamic nature of fluctuating between these various states
Various states, you mean price moving? Sure, but to profit (or lose) you need to be net long or short. If you know another way then please share it!


Quoting pa_pips

Precisely why I say ignore context at your own peril. As they say, the devil is in the details
Yeah you're kind of getting a bit mixed up there, I stated a very simple fact which doesn't require any further details, it's obvious in isolation, context will not change anything. Your example however does require more details before anyone can offer an opinion as to whether it's flawed or not.
  • #640
  • May 9, 2012 2:31am May 9, 2012 2:31am
Quoting pipmutt
It may well be stating the obvious but it seems the obvious isn't so obvious to some people! Net short/long is a fact, regardless of context. You can create as many scenarios as you want but it's not going to change anything.
So are you really saying time has absolutely nothing to do with it? Is that why you simply ignore the second part of my question?




Quoting pipmutt
Yeah you're kind of getting a bit mixed up there, I stated a very simple fact which doesn't require any further details, it's obvious in isolation, context will not change anything. Your example however does require more details before anyone can offer an opinion as to whether it's flawed or not.
This seems to be a contradiction. I gave you an example of a hedged position. Context won't change anything according to you as you are net short, long or flat, then why the need for additional information?
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
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