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  • #41
  • Aug 6, 2009 5:47am Aug 6, 2009 5:47am
Quoting pipmutt
As far as the level of volume anyone trades I couldn't say without seeing broker statements, it's all relative anyway. But if as you say he's trading in clips of above 20 million presumably with a true ECN then it brings even more into question whether his strategies would be equally effective or even suitable for someone trading micro lots with a dealing desk bucket shop. (I think you kind of shot yourself in the foot with that one!)
I'm a bit curious - why would a strategy that works on high lots be more inefficient with lower lots? I would assume it's vice versa unless you mean jackos orders move the market and that is a bit absurd.
  • #42
  • Edited 7:03am Aug 6, 2009 6:47am | Edited 7:03am
Quoting pipmutt
Well as a business he obviously has to pay his overhead and turn a profit, and as a consumer you obviously can't expect to get something for nothing.
Again, where is this "business" and how is he turning a "profit" on less than 2 dollars a day?

Quoting pipmutt
I'm not debating whether what he offers is good value or not, I'm just pointing out the differences between a mentor (in the traditional sense) and a trader training business.
I don't see any way to classify his blog as a "trader training business"...

Quoting pipmutt
From a moral standpoint is it ethical to sell a product knowing that in all probability the majority of people buying it will not benefit in the long term, in fact they're quite likely to lose money. Unfortunately in business moral considerations rarely feature when it comes to selling something, especially in this business.
It would appear you accusing Jacko of being immoral for sharing his views and his trades(he IS NOT a signal provider) to those who are willing to help pay for the service he uses to keep his small group of turtles informed in real time? He does NOT turn a profit in ANY way with 2 dollars a day..and quite frankly I'm thankful he has the patience to put up with insinuations like the one you just posted...I know I wouldn't...all the moreso when all I need is 1/3 of a pip to make the same amount that one person pays....for a FULL YEAR.

Quoting pipmutt
I'm not particularly impressed by the little bit I have seen, or convinced his offering is any better or worse than the dozens of other trader training blogs around the net, but fortunately I'm not in the market for training so it doesn't really affect me.
To me that shows the amount of effort (none) you've put into researching who Wayne Jackson is and his path into FX ...and considering your prior allegations regarding morality....

Regarding the rest...different strokes for different folks...I'm always looking for ways to gain more knowledge...but again..that's me.

Quoting pipmutt
You pays your money and you takes your choice, if it works for you then great!
Thanks..it does..and many times over.


Quoting pipmutt
As far as the level of volume anyone trades I couldn't say without seeing broker statements, it's all relative anyway. But if as you say he's trading in clips of above 20 million presumably with a true ECN then it brings even more into question whether his strategies would be equally effective or even suitable for someone trading micro lots with a dealing desk bucket shop. (I think you kind of shot yourself in the foot with that one!)
Mmmmm...interesting...so if he sells at x.xxxx...and I decide through my own analysis (or like some just piggyback what he is doing) and decide that the level is valid..and he makes 100 200 pips or whatever...I won't make the same profit pipwise albeit relative to the size I'm trading??! I may have shot myself in the foot....(not) but you may want to be more careful where your pointing the muzzle when your playing with the gun...
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #43
  • Aug 6, 2009 7:05am Aug 6, 2009 7:05am
Ok, this is what I kind of expected would happen and as I said previously I'm really not going to get into a debate about any particular vendor on this site, it usually turns into an inconclusive argument.

I think we've expressed our respective points of view about the differences and (dis)advantages between personal mentors and general commercial trader training businesses so perhaps in the interest of forum decorum it's best if we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Good trading!
  • #44
  • Aug 6, 2009 7:14am Aug 6, 2009 7:14am
Quoting pipmutt
Ok, this is what I kind of expected would happen and as I said previously I'm really not going to get into a debate about any particular vendor on this site, it usually turns into an inconclusive argument.

I think we've expressed our respective points of view about the differences and (dis)advantages between personal mentors and general commercial trader training businesses so perhaps in the interest of forum decorum it's best if we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Good trading!
Your choice...however I still cannot understand how one can label an individual in a certain manner (throwing morality in for good measure) without - by their own admission - having done any true research beforehand or for that matter addressing the minor issue of that same individual needing only a fraction of a pip to make the same amount he would recieve for a full year from a paying member of his "trader training business"...

thus either that individual is nuts (I wish I was as well then)...OR..that individual doesn't care AT ALL to profit form helping others and thus...is a TRUE MENTOR that simply uses technology to communicate people he would otherwise never reach and do so in real time to boot.

It would also be interesting to know your reply to Mikkom's point....I guess we never will
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #45
  • Aug 6, 2009 8:16am Aug 6, 2009 8:16am
Quoting coscorp
I beg to differ....I don't see how one can assert that an individual that trades with the volume he does can actually be interested in making less than 2 dollars a day...(let me put it in a different perspective to help clarify further...he trades USD2000 and above a PIP..thus to make 700 USD (THE YEARLY FEE)...takes him approximately 1/3 of a pip....) and trust me...he's made more than that....
You don't know for a fact that he actually trades let alone what size unless you've seen original broker statements.

Quote

we than also have the cost of the international sms service he uses...and more often than not he sends out multiple one's...so he is doing it for free...and I'm purposely leaving aside what HIS time may be worth (care to make an estimate?) as he answers each and every email in a timely manner and gives us insights on what he believes will happen...which alone are worth far more what his annual dues are...but thats just me

There are several sites that offer sms service from your computer over the internet to anywhere in the world for pennies.
  • #46
  • Aug 6, 2009 8:19am Aug 6, 2009 8:19am
Quoting coscorp
Again, where is this "business" and how is he turning a "profit" on less than 2 dollars a day?


20 new subscribers a month is $14,000 a month. Sounds like a pretty good business to me.
  • #47
  • Aug 6, 2009 8:44am Aug 6, 2009 8:44am
Quoting threei
20 new subscribers a month is $14,000 a month. Sounds like a pretty good business to me.
Again...what is his cost per person to get the information out? We also should be well over 260 people by now...I'm not sure we're even more than 40....(imagine the volume of emails 260 people can generate..and the time it would take to answer them.....) no to mention that by end of year 2...they would be over 520 and so on....

however I'd like to also reitirate another detail....

14.000/2.000 (avg amount per pip traded)= .....7 pips...what would you do?

Concentrate on making those 7 pips (A MONTH) or put yourself through all this bullsh*t regarding your motives morality and what have you??
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #48
  • Aug 6, 2009 8:44am Aug 6, 2009 8:44am
Pls aw do i join jacko's group. I will like to be trained by him
  • #49
  • Edited 9:15am Aug 6, 2009 8:54am | Edited 9:15am
Quoting pipmutt
From a moral standpoint is it ethical to sell a product knowing that in all probability the majority of people buying it will not benefit in the long term
Of course it is moral and ethical.

This is like saying is moral and ethical to sell an exercise bike to someone that will probably use it for a week and then hang their clothes on it for years.

It's funny, I was talking to someone just yesterday, and they were looking for ways to save money and it dawned on them that they have been pay $30/mo for a gym membership that they haven't used it 2.5 years. This is not an uncommon scenario (the 2.5 years a long time though), is it immoral or unethical for the gym to sell a monthly / yearly membership?

Gym's know that most people will keep paying and not use the service after a short period. Tons of articles on the subject if you care to search. That is their bread and butter, especially around Jan 1st since most people make a new years resolution to lose weight, they join and go a few times and then stop. Not canceling the membership has to be psychological in nature.

Regardless, it is still moral and ethical for the gym to sell the membership.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #50
  • Aug 6, 2009 8:57am Aug 6, 2009 8:57am
I had missed this...

Quoting threei
You don't know for a fact that he actually trades let alone what size unless you've seen original broker statements.

There are several sites that offer sms service from your computer over the internet to anywhere in the world for pennies.
Considering he posts his trades LIVE (and always has...both the good..and the bad)....some research may help...

Granted...still I KNOW I've made WAYYYYYYY more (not only in monetary terms) than the 700 dollars I paid...and the year is far from over....
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #51
  • Aug 6, 2009 9:11am Aug 6, 2009 9:11am
Quoting coscorp

14.000/2.000 (avg amount per pip traded)= .....7 pips...what would you do?

Concentrate on making those 7 pips (A MONTH) or put yourself through all this bullsh*t regarding your motives morality and what have you??
You keep stating this $2000 pip number like it is a fact, when it is just the claim of some internet trading guru.




Quoting coscorp
I had missed this...



Considering he posts his trades LIVE (and always has...both the good..and the bad)....some research may help...

Granted...still I KNOW I've made WAYYYYYYY more (not only in monetary terms) than the 700 dollars I paid...and the year is far from over....
He posts his calls live. I can post calls and claim I am trading $2000 a pip, doesn't make it true.

Jacko's calls were break even for the first 6 months of 2009. You are a member, go do the math yourself. Start from January 1, 2009 and tally his trade results to June 30th. I am sure that $14,000 a month or whatever the number is sure came in handy. How is that for research?
  • #52
  • Aug 6, 2009 9:21am Aug 6, 2009 9:21am
Interesting....guess I've got to give some money away then....I should be breakeven on his trades...mumble....

Thanks for the heads up...
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #53
  • Aug 6, 2009 9:27am Aug 6, 2009 9:27am
I've looked at James16 thread and I enjoy the overview he provides. I think I can be successful and utilize his help. I think the money that he's asking for isn't absurd. I've seen so many forex guru's selling their "systems" for thousands of dollars up front. I don't have the same feeling with James16 group.

There's definitely a commonality between BillyRayValentine, Jacko, James16, Strat and I've seen S/R and PA work. Personally I believe the way they trade allows for a high Reward to Risk ratio and a high success rate. Its not bound by indicators that under certain conditions and lag price.

For the risk of entering James16 group (wasted money and time) I find the potential reward to be much more otherwise I wouldn't consider joining. As of right now I have some understanding of finding good trades but the reality is I'd like to solidify my knowledge and move to the next level.

Unfortunately the threads of these members are overloaded with posts that I get really confused and discouraged trying to sift through them and I'm hoping that's not the case with the paid group.

If anyone has any thoughts for me positive or negative I'd like to hear them.
  • #54
  • Edited 12:58pm Aug 6, 2009 9:47am | Edited 12:58pm
Quoting mjotic
I've looked at James16 thread and I enjoy the overview he provides....
Edit: Put this info in a PM.

I belong to both and I'm happy with my decisions.

I do think that it is important to have a mentor or mentors to help you along the way. I do believe it can literally shave years off the learning curve if you dedicate yourself. As far as one on one mentorship, it maybe the 'Gold Standard' it has it's advantages, but living in the Internet day and age online mentoring is still better than no mentoring, IMHO.

Just because you have mentor is no guarantee you will be successful. As far as I know there is no such guarantee in any aspect of life, but you put the odds in your favor (as long as you chose a good mentor and apply yourself).

I'm not a pitchman for either group, by the way. All I'm saying is I personally believe in mentorship and regardless of whom you chose, chose wisely.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #55
  • Aug 6, 2009 10:56am Aug 6, 2009 10:56am
I think there might be some confusion or disagreement on what a "Mentor" is. I was a Jacko subscriber for a while and I really feel both him and J16 have great value but i would not classify either of them as a mentor. I view these as more of educational site and signal service. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you are looking for a true Mentor you need to find someone that can deal with your needs on a more personal basis.

To clarify say you go to trade school to be an electrician. To me this is Jacko and J16. They offer a good service and have educated a lot of traders. Afterwards if you still need further guidance you would do your apprenceship side by side with an electrician. Simply this is Mentoring.

Just my opinion....

Brent
  • #56
  • Aug 6, 2009 10:58am Aug 6, 2009 10:58am
Quoting forex2stay
I think there might be some confusion or disagreement on what a "Mentor" is. I was a Jacko subscriber for a while and I really feel both him and J16 have great value but i would not classify either of them as a mentor. I view these as more of educational site and signal service. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you are looking for a true Mentor you need to find someone that can deal with your needs on a more personal basis.

Very well put, good post.
  • #57
  • Aug 6, 2009 11:02am Aug 6, 2009 11:02am
Quoting LasVahGoose
Of course it is moral and ethical.

This is like saying is moral and ethical to sell an exercise bike to someone that will probably use it for a week and then hang their clothes on it for years.

It's funny, I was talking to someone just yesterday, and they were looking for ways to save money and it dawned on them that they have been pay $30/mo for a gym membership that they haven't used it 2.5 years. This is not an uncommon scenario (the 2.5 years a long time though), is it immoral or unethical for the gym to sell a monthly / yearly membership?...
It's business, and not all business is ethically sound.

Taking money off trader hopefuls who probably have less than a 2% chance of making it in this business but will probably end up losing money, and training them en masse, isn't what I would call ethically sound.

The retailer of your exercise bike is selling a product at it's market value, you get exactly what you pay for in psychical goods. Gyms sell membership to a facility which exists, you can go there and use the equipment and facilities. Trader training businesses on the other hand are selling a pipe dream to anyone who pays the subscription. They should know full well that the vast majority of their subscribers have very little chance of becoming successful. Is that ethical?
  • #58
  • Aug 6, 2009 11:04am Aug 6, 2009 11:04am
LasVahGoose

Thanks for your reply. I share your thoughts on mentorship. All I'm looking for is to stack the odds in my favour and learn faster. Its definitely not a guarantee that anyone will succeed with a mentor. There is no substitute for effort and there's even the risk that effort will not lead to success.

Either way I'm interested in moving forward and taking a chance. I do not want to dismiss something without trying it first. I'm going into this with an open mind and a work ethic. I'm guessing its worth trying another mentor if it doesn't work out since there are different ways of approaching the market.

Which would you recommend for a person that's getting started with mentorship Jacko or James16? I'm curious to know.

Thanks again for your reply.
  • #59
  • Aug 6, 2009 11:05am Aug 6, 2009 11:05am
Quoting LasVahGoose
I do think that it is important to have a mentor or mentors to help you along the way. I do believe it can literally shave years off the learning curve if you dedicate yourself. As far as one on one mentorship, it maybe the 'Gold Standard' it has it's advantages, but living in the Internet day and age online mentoring is still better than no mentoring, IMHO.

Just because you have mentor is no guarantee you will be successful. As far as I know there is no such guarantee in any aspect of life, but you put the odds in your favor (as long as you chose...

Mentorship by definition is a one-to-one relationship and I agree with you, it can be extremely useful to have a mentor especially in this business. But trading isn't a one-size-fits-all, it's a very personal endeavour, that's why training people on a mass scale is less effective and produces less results than a personal mentor who can tailor tuition according to his pupil's aptitude and progress. Like I mentioned before, true mentors are selective about who they agree to mentor, they usually have to be convinced that the pupil has what it takes to become successful and that he is going to be a worthwhile prospect, unlike these trader training businesses he doesn't just take on anyone who comes along and pays the fees up front.

I have nothing against any of the vendors mentioned in this thread as long as they're offering value for money and know what they're doing, But I see them for what they are, a commercial enterprise selling a service en masse to struggling novice traders and they'll take on anyone who pays the ticket, they're not mentors though, not in the true sense.
  • #60
  • Aug 6, 2009 11:23am Aug 6, 2009 11:23am
Quoting pipmutt
It's business, and not all business is ethically sound.

Taking money off...
Absolutely it is ethical if the method being sold / taught is valid and profitable. It would be unethical to sell a subscription that was teaching a method that was patently false. Just because the odds of 'making it' are low doesn't make it unethical. You can give / sell a new trader a 'winning system' and they may still lose.

Is selling a diet book ethical? The author should know that in the long run that people won't stay on the diet and eventually gain all the weight back + extra. There is nothing unethical about selling a diet book.

Bernie Madoff is an example of unethical.

All these types business / mentorships have a disclaimer regarding trading and the risk involved and I highly doubt there is a person out there doesn't know what the odds are of success are. Just because the odds of success a low doesn't mean a mentor is being unethical.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
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