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  • #21
  • Edited 6:07pm Aug 17, 2007 5:48pm | Edited 6:07pm
Quoting Plutonite
It is an extremely difficult argument to make and back up, but I think in situations like these the constraint of a small fixed TP level is not statistically more wholesome than letting the trades run and waiting for confluence/rangebound activity to signal the end of the run. Just my 2 pips.
Well if you like me to back up this argument I would be more than happy to do so. I have my trades tracked by 3rd parties
  • #22
  • Aug 17, 2007 7:12pm Aug 17, 2007 7:12pm
Quoting turbokaos
Well if you like me to back up this argument I would be more than happy to do so. I have my trades tracked by 3rd parties
Guys, calm down, before I begin let me say that I do not like the sweeping *noobs!* accusation made by demark regarding fixed TP levels, and secondly I know very well you are swinging at least 4-5 times my lot sizes (dollar to pip) turbo and you're probably gonna be a darn billionare before I hit my first million, you monster! You are one of the few people I ask for advice so you don't need me to tell you that I respect your trading and knowledge

I've watched your thread and I know you have started using tighter fixed TP rather recently because you missed your targets, and that you are bagging more pips overall now, but all this is not really relevant, and I am not even talking about you in particular.

I am saying just this: fixed TP targets that take into account market volatility (such as using ATR calculations as merlin will tell you) will have better R:R and possibly the same successful % rate as small TP targets such as the one you use, in many situations. Further, I claim this (from my own experience): if a trader uses discretionary reasoning like we both do to enter a trade, then using discretionary exits is a logical and often more profitable method than just ignoring everything and TP at 30 pips every time. This is not because 30 is too little, in fact, I have been taking 25 and 40 pip profits from that f&^%@* USDCHF chart that looks really cool until you discover it moves 20 pips in a session

We both have data to back us up over hundreds of trades, and I am not saying you will be happier trading like me (not everyone can take 4 hours a night of disturbed sleep lol), but I am speaking strictly from a statistical prospective that ignores everything but the numbers.

Hope that clears it up, good luck mate!
Virtue finds and chooses the mean. Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea
  • #23
  • Aug 17, 2007 11:40pm Aug 17, 2007 11:40pm
I agree 30 pips stop loss was easily triggered.

However... I made TONS of pips by doing 30 pips TRAILING STOP!

As soon as I identified a consistent move in one direction I loaded the trucks and placed the trailing stop...

Then sit and watch my horse make 30, 50 and even up to 120 pips

Yay!
  • #24
  • Edited 1:45am Aug 18, 2007 1:39am | Edited 1:45am
Hey Newbies ..Well the two above me (plutonite and turbokaos) don't sound like newbies, in fact, they actually sound like they're experienced. Well to me. Really..

I'd like to point out, that if you can say that you are experienced, or even have the ability for someone to make a conclusion about you and think that you are experienced, if even a little; If you can do this, you must have a "right" answer to to the big question we all fundamentally ask...

How to make money trading. Or How to not lose money trading? The ladder which is what i'd expect a more seasoned trader to ask. They both have a method which was most likely brought to reality from a series of mistakes, and successes. Successes and mistakes that had to be brought up by a solid confidence in themselves. A confidence to believe that they already have the right answer. So they do not have to go and look for a trader with another answer, because they no longer have to worry about that fundamental question. How not to lose money trading.

But still there is a part of them, that needs to clear things up, and needs to be right. Needs to feel that the other trader believes in what they're saying. Or else why bother post at all? Does this acceptance make the trader feel more confident in him/herself? Does the perceived un-acceptance make the trader feel less confident about themself? More importantly, does either one of these make the trader trade differently?

This is a basic force that drives people. Agree? ...Trading itself could be viewed as one of the most egotisical trips around.

Trading is one thing that cannot be solved, by some exact system, i believe the term may be "holy grail." Sure you believe you can do it, but you will never be able to show anyone else how to do it. Are there successfull traders out there?.. Yes. Then why do we not collectivly know how to do it?... can they really keep a seceret that long?...that well?! Well the seceret cannot be put into words, as the trader said a couple posts ago "it goes deeper than this."... But we try, and try and try and try to look for "right". On one hand we try and find that seceret-- put in words... and on the other, we try and put that seceret into words. Trying not to be wrong..and trying to "know" we're right. A cycle of sorts.

So have these two fallen into the cycle! No, not necessarilly... read on..

Personally, i don't or have never believed that i can make anyone a better trader. shit.. I'd rather make me a better trader. But i do believe that by combimg over things such as this, it will enable newbies as well as experienced traders to maybe see what drives even the successfull, in a world that seems to, more often, tell you what you are doing wrong psychologically. I don't think your wrong, after all, i was there too. Its natural to do this, to find yourself in the cycle without trying. Funny thing is trading has nothing to do with whats natural.

When you read that you must do "so and so"in a psychological sense, you may tend to think that your doing something wrong right now, psychologically. Or why look for that something to read in the first place? Welcome to the cycle. Now don't jump on me.. please. Determining the cycle is the difference between arguing and having a conversation. If you know your right, you have conversations. If you have an occasional argument, how right can you really be? Doctors can argue, mathematitions can argue, even science. --they all have absolutes. Think trading has absolutes?

Finishing up my thought about the two traders possibly being in the cycle:

Ask yourself: Are you having a conversation with me, or looking for an argument?
  • #25
  • Aug 18, 2007 3:56am Aug 18, 2007 3:56am
Quoting mbqb11
It is about your overall trading plan.

It is about having a plan and trading it and being consistent(whatever your trading plan is). There is nothing to argue here. You have to do what works for you.
Print, read, the end ;p
Everyone who made 500000% in 3 days this period and then goes on to lose 100% of that new sum over the remainder of his term still ends up worse than anyone with a plan, doing a consistent 5% per week, week in, week out.
To sum up my thoughts about the pointlessness of all this whoop-whooping about "easy money".

Quote
The perception people have about other traders and the "right" thing to do astounds me sometimes. It really can be the blind leading the blind - and then where does that leave us in the end lol.

Hitting brick walls a lot I'd say.

Amen. Sums up the public forum preeeeetty well;p

Just my personal opinion / 2 cents as well.
Trust price. Know yourself.
  • #26
  • Aug 18, 2007 4:03am Aug 18, 2007 4:03am
Quoting Censce
But still there is a part of them, that needs to clear things up, and needs to be right. Needs to feel that the other trader believes in what they're saying.
Up to the point where you realize 99% of the rest of the world won't EVER learn, let alone understand how this works and that you're for the most part throwing pearls to swine and quit trying to do that very thing and restrict it to people who actually do show willingness to learn and change.

Happens pretty swiftly though(the change in one's perspective and stopping to try and change those unwilling to).

Then you move on.


Quote
Or else why bother post at all?
Most of the time: boredom.

Quote
Does this acceptance make the trader feel more confident in him/herself? Does the perceived un-acceptance make the trader feel less confident about themself?
If that is still happening, you are still a long way off.

Quote
This is a basic force that drives people. Agree?
People yes, traders no.

Quote
Trading itself could be viewed as one of the most egotisical trips around.
As in you mostly prove something to YOURSELF, not to OTHERS, yes.

Quote
Trading is one thing that cannot be solved, by some exact system, i believe the term may be "holy grail." Sure you believe you can do it, but you will never be able to show anyone else how to do it.
Odd, then how did I learn if not by some very great mentors from this very forum..

Quote
Are there successfull traders out there?.. Yes. Then why do we not collectivly know how to do it?
Because people refuse change and have built in mechanisms preventing THEM from getting there. Failure of people does not equal failure of systems.

Quote
Well the seceret cannot be put into words
Humility, diligence, patience, discipline, detachment.

--

My opinion.
Trust price. Know yourself.
  • #27
  • Aug 18, 2007 11:18am Aug 18, 2007 11:18am
Great points SeekingLight.

Keep in mind, in his world he is right, in mine he's having a conversation, to others he may be having an argument.

But I digress, from the main subject matter of this thread. This may be better suited for the lounge or "newbie" section.

Anyways.. hope you are all having a great weekend!

Good Luck and Good trading.
  • #28
  • Aug 18, 2007 12:35pm Aug 18, 2007 12:35pm
Quoting Censce
Trading is one thing that cannot be solved, by some exact system, i believe the term may be "holy grail." Sure you believe you can do it, but you will never be able to show anyone else how to do it. Are there successfull traders out there?.. Yes. Then why do we not collectivly know how to do it?... can they really keep a seceret that long?...that well?! Well the seceret cannot be put into words, as the trader said a couple posts ago "it goes deeper than this."... But we try, and try and try and try to look for "right". On one hand we try and find that seceret-- put in words... and on the other, we try and put that seceret into words. Trying not to be wrong..and trying to "know" we're right. A cycle of sorts.
I will agree that there are two sides of the line that you've pointed out, but I disagree that one chases the other. At first we all chase that simple question: What is this Holy Grail? We start digging up anything and everything we can find, sifting through it all chasing the answer. I think we already know the answer, it's the question that drives us. The only problem in looking for the right question to ask ourselves is that just as there are as many languages spoken by people on this earth, there are successful trading methodologies. We're all trying to tell each other the same thing (how to bag net positive pips), just having a hard time understanding each other. I think that's where some of the frustration comes into play.

Once you finally find that door leading down the hallway towards the grail you're looking for, when you open that door you start flowing information back and forth, but eventually you'll walk through that door and venture down the hallway looking for yourself to find what's at the end, looking more for your own endeavor than the favor of other traders. It's like a doctoral thesis in university, you're finally far enough along that you're now doing the new and unexplored research into various topics so that you might be able to further the advance of knowledge. Not that you can't work with others obviously, but how many doctorate people do you know that use all undergrads for help? They'll mostly find other doctoral people to pick over.

Back to what I was saying earlier: It's those people sitting in the doorway that bring up the arguing and the "I need to prove I'm right before I move on" personalities. Those who took the next step and went down that hallway, you don't see too much of them around FF anymore because they're off on their own now. Luckily there are a few who find what they seek and come back and tell the rest of us about it. Ask Mike (Mbqb11) who his mentor is, and that's a perfect example.

I understand if this all might seem a bit muddy and philosophical, but it is! That and I prefer to speak analogously, makes it easier for me to explain things.

Personally, I'm sitting at the doorway waiting to go through, I just need to collect some capital first before I venture forth.
Never underestimate the powers of the Force.
  • #29
  • Aug 20, 2007 2:47pm Aug 20, 2007 2:47pm
@ Censce

The possibilities are unlimited and that is why you have so many players in this game we call FX. I don't believe one persons strategy/system is better than another. The impression on this tread is if someone had been using 30SL and/or 30TP it would have limited your gains on last weeks moves but as you can see from my journal this is not necessarily the case. It really comes down to what works best for you.

Managing risk is the most important thing for long term success as a forex trader and using to much margin can be fatal for your account.
  • #30
  • Aug 22, 2007 6:08am Aug 22, 2007 6:08am
@the jedi
When i was writting these posts, i had in mind the next step, but i hadn't really touched on it. I think that after certain stages in the trading learning curve people tend to try and define what is needed next. A Philosophical view can never go wrong .

About doctorates only looking for doctorates, that was a great point. Makes me wonder how many "doctorates" are lurking around here. May i point out the need for discretionary learning again.

But i should also point out the availability of great people on here, that do have great things to say.

Your view on the hallway and doorway, is an interesting one. I'm sure you may change your thinking on this in time. I only say this as a student myself. Sometimes it's easy to think your in a certain stage of development (through the doorway), but in reality your far from it. However it can work both ways, maybe your shutting yourself down, and have really already made it through the door. I'd think that realising where you are in your development is a pretty good achievement. Makes me wonder what constitutes making it through the door?? Ever think that maybe some people get through the door only to not find anything that they thought they were looking for? And in turn they think that they're still stuck at the door? Maybe there is no concrete answer. Maybe that is part of the process? Perception and relativity play a big role in this.

But again, this is the beauty of a philosophical point. It leaves room to move and for the readers beliefs to move around freely within a given environment.

We need more of these

@Turbokaos
Your reply was great. Yes, i am sorry for leaning away from the impression in this thread. But it's great that you brought that back up, and explained it in the words that you did. Without going into too much detail, it's easy to see how the different ideas here all tie together.

Quote
It really comes down to what works best for you.
Quote
Managing risk is the most important thing for long term success as a forex trader and using to much margin can be fatal for your account.

Sounds absolutly wise to me Thank You.
  • #31
  • Last Post: Aug 22, 2007 9:26am Aug 22, 2007 9:26am
Quoting Censce
@the jedi
When i was writting these posts, i had in mind the next step, but i hadn't really touched on it. I think that after certain stages in the trading learning curve people tend to try and define what is needed next. A Philosophical view can never go wrong .

About doctorates only looking for doctorates, that was a great point. Makes me wonder how many "doctorates" are lurking around here. May i point out the need for discretionary learning again.

But i should also point out the availability of great people on here, that do have great things to say.

Your view on the hallway and doorway, is an interesting one. I'm sure you may change your thinking on this in time. I only say this as a student myself. Sometimes it's easy to think your in a certain stage of development (through the doorway), but in reality your far from it. However it can work both ways, maybe your shutting yourself down, and have really already made it through the door. I'd think that realising where you are in your development is a pretty good achievement. Makes me wonder what constitutes making it through the door?? Ever think that maybe some people get through the door only to not find anything that they thought they were looking for? And in turn they think that they're still stuck at the door? Maybe there is no concrete answer. Maybe that is part of the process? Perception and relativity play a big role in this.

But again, this is the beauty of a philosophical point. It leaves room to move and for the readers beliefs to move around freely within a given environment.

We need more of these
Definitely some good thinking points. As far as "lurking doctorates" I think a few of the people that have been around a while know some of the "people who went on to do post-graduate work" from the forums. They're around, don't worry.

As for my own personal positioning of myself, I say I'm at the doorway looking through because I've found my good system for myself, I've been testing it for several months now and am more than pleased with the results, especially these past two weeks. I just need the capital to get going. It's like being stuck in a row boat rowing against the current when you can already see your destination. You just need to install a small outboard engine to get started...
Never underestimate the powers of the Force.
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