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What are the big Ideas in successful trading?

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  • First Post: Edited May 28, 2016 1:25pm May 24, 2016 11:32pm | Edited May 28, 2016 1:25pm
  •  shellsnail
  • Joined Aug 2012 | Status: Trends, Levels, Confirmation, Bayes | 1,834 Posts
Want to start a thread to throw around and discuss some big ideas in trading. I'll start with some of my thoughts.

1. Hope v.s. Wishful Thinking

The dictionary defines 'Hope' as "a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen."

When such expectations are grounded in objective reality, hope is good. Otherwise, hope is dangerous and is in fact wishful thinking. The difficulty of trading is in telling objective reality apart from subjective thoughts.

When someone first starts out as a trader, he or she has a lack of trading knowledge. There is no telling what information is useful and what isn't. Later on, as a trader becomes more knowledgable, he or she falls prey to the opposite problem: now everything seems informative, how do we weigh one piece of information against another?

The trap here is to use meaningless evidence to sustain wild beliefs about what we expect to happen in the market. I am sure we have all done that before. Some of us, many many many times.

To succeed, traders have to learn the skill of "arriving at hopelessness" quickly. Take too long, and your account gets blown. Once we arrive at hopelessness, we are at a powerful place to make good decisions. We stop clinging on to the past and we can start anew. Good traders somehow have learnt to do this almost instinctively.

2. Bayesian thinking (aka context matters; the present also matters.)

For many traders, the trade ends once it has been placed and a SL and TP is set. Some call this the "Set and Forget" method. No doubt this can appear to be effective, but, at least in theory, it is not the best option.

Set and forget completely disregards any new information and relies completely on the original analysis a trader makes. This cannot be the most effective way because new information do matter. News releases or even just random market events and order flow changes can affect the market and behaviour of market participants. The reality is, we do not know when a trend will end regardless of the timeframe, but when a trend is ending, we can see it happening and acknowledge that it has happened.

You may see that every time frame from D1 to 4H to 1H to 15min to 5 min is in a strong downtrend, but when the 1 minute chart starts reacting strongly at a key level, do you disregard it? What happens when it turns into a uptrend on the 5 minute? Do you still disregard it? The answer is that it depends. It depends on what time frame you are operating on and how you weigh the different probabilities in your trading model.

Adding onto this line of reasoning, it is plain ridiculous to think that any specific "entry method" based on a series of candle patterns or any particular indicator will create profits on its own. Every market situation is different. It is the sum of all the contextual information and changing based on the stream of present information coming in. A trader's job, at least how I see it, is to interpret this stream of information in light of the context and make decisions that best reflect the existing probabilities. Most of the time the decision would be to stay out of the market and do nothing because the odds are simply not that good.

What are your thoughts on big ideas in successful trading?

Thread summary on 29/05/16: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...05#post8950805
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  • Post #2
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  • May 25, 2016 2:50am May 25, 2016 2:50am
  •  feline207
  • | Joined May 2009 | Status: <3 | 679 Posts
I agree with you. I would add being humble and modest and realistic. Whenever you start to think that you are bigger than the game you play, things could happen that will get you out of it really fast. It is important to acknowledge what you are part of as a trader, and do not expect more and do not expect less than what is realistic for your job. Also, avoid listening to others predictions and analysis, because it doesnt develop your own ways. Looking at the market from the eyes of another person is pretty much impossible, so there is no way to avoid building your own neural pathways, the more you postpone that the later you will start seeing desired results. Forget about set and forget (it would have been nice ). Do not get too involved with TFs or the word trend, at least do not build your ways around those terms. Those are my ideas.
 
 
  • Post #3
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  • May 25, 2016 3:04am May 25, 2016 3:04am
  •  Neio
  • Joined Oct 2012 | Status: Can't think outside?Enlarge the box | 688 Posts
Here is a big idea but probably unpopular idea to successful trading...

Less is More

We are told that we need more information or data (backtesting) and the computation of that data (indicators, analysis) will enable us to make better predictions or decisions in our trading.
We are being primed to believe that we need lots of indicators and backtesting in order to be able to trade successfully.
This is hurting our ability to trade more naturally and to see the most important factors and ignore the rest.
Real cognitive ability in trading is being able to focus on the relevant bits and deliberately ignore the rest.
We need to ignore the noise and look for the most important cues that we can use to make better decisions in our trading.

Just like how the Captain of this plane avoided disaster.

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When US Airways Flight 1549 piloted by Captain Chesley Sullenberger ran into a flock of geese and landed on the Hudson River after he determined the plane would not make it back to LaGuardia. While you might expect that the captain measured speed, wind, altitude, and distance to decide where to land, he used a simple rule of thumb: Fix your gaze on the tower: If the tower rises in your windshield, you won’t make it.

Don't get me wrong. Indicators and limited backtesting have a purpose in that they can help us to understand the nature and structure of the market but
there comes a point where more is less and does not lead to more accuracy in our trading.

Regards

Neio
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made
 
2
  • Post #4
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  • May 25, 2016 3:08am May 25, 2016 3:08am
  •  Stubborn
  • Joined Apr 2016 | Status: Dumbest Trader ever | 706 Posts
Very good topic.
However only successful traders will be able to give the real facts on this if they do feel kind enough to post here.
I am still struggling and hence I am also very interested in knowing just like shellsnail.
We will definitely see many posts here all claiming that they are very successful and profitable.
Waiting.....
When the going gets tough , the tough get going
 
 
  • Post #5
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  • May 25, 2016 3:58am May 25, 2016 3:58am
  •  Rtm
  • Joined Jan 2011 | Status: dump and pump | 4,055 Posts
what is success to you? plan your trade(s), trade your plan. patience. success is discipline friends.
All posts are my personal opinion
 
 
  • Post #6
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  • May 25, 2016 4:22am May 25, 2016 4:22am
  •  chartsndream
  • | Joined Apr 2016 | Status: Member | 95 Posts
Ideas to successful trading? PROPER use of position sizing, stop-loss and risk management. They are all correlated. Become proficient in a proven system and stick to your trading plan. Easier said than done. The complexity of the market has simple solutions. You are not going to win all your trades, this is very important to understand.
 
 
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  • May 25, 2016 5:08am May 25, 2016 5:08am
  •  jen101
  • | Membership Revoked | Joined Aug 2012 | 5,371 Posts
Quoting Neio
Disliked
Here is a big idea but probably unpopular idea to successful trading... Less is More We are told that we need more information or data (backtesting) and the computation of that data (indicators, analysis) will enable us to make better predictions or decisions in our trading. We are being primed to believe that we need lots of indicators and backtesting in order to be able to trade successfully. This is hurting our ability to trade more naturally and to see the most important factors and ignore the rest. Real cognitive ability in trading is being...
Ignored
Excellent. When I started I used to look at everything. Nowadays I'm a one trick pony. I only trade 2 pairs and I look for the same thing over and over. Boring as hell, but I plod along nicely.
 
 
  • Post #8
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  • May 25, 2016 5:23am May 25, 2016 5:23am
  •  shellsnail
  • Joined Aug 2012 | Status: Trends, Levels, Confirmation, Bayes | 1,834 Posts
Quoting Rtm
Disliked
what is success to you? plan your trade(s), trade your plan. patience. success is discipline friends.
Ignored
I heard a quote somewhere...

patience = "I can take this pain."
Build good relationships with others.
 
 
  • Post #9
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  • Edited 3:26pm May 25, 2016 5:55am | Edited 3:26pm
  •  olsen-yersen
  • | Joined May 2011 | Status: Member | 222 Posts
I like your thoughs of ''wishful thinking versus Bayesian thinking''.
My toughs and my findings are ony the quantitative methods and ideas are successful in trading.
 
 
  • Post #10
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  • May 25, 2016 6:50am May 25, 2016 6:50am
  •  albchr
  • Joined Mar 2009 | Status: Member | 25,480 Posts
Great topic(s) for discussion, nice thread and replies thus far. Long may it continue that way shellsnail.

I started out as a support/resistance, supply/demand trader and that remains the foundation of my views on price movement. It just seemed natural and logical to me from the start. I don't use any indicators although I certainly put some on my charts when starting out to "see" what others were talking about. I'd normally try one at a time (I just naturally hate a cluttered chart) and I could understand the concept behind most of them but I must confess, I never did actually "see" what others did. I'm not saying they aren't useful for those that do. I figure if folks can find something recognizable to themselves in one or more indicators (or "tools" like Fibs or MA's) that helps their conviction in a decision, then that's an advantage to them. Repeatable recognition however it's derived is an advantage.

Quoting shellsnail
Disliked
For many traders, the trade ends once it has been placed and a SL and TP is set. Some call this the "Set and Forget" method. No doubt this can appear to be effective, but, at least in theory, it is not the best option. Set and forget completely disregards any new information and relies completely on the original analysis a trader makes. This cannot be the most effective way because new information do matter.
Ignored
I couldn't agree more with the above. I learned and have advocated from early on that the market is fluid and ever changing and as traders, we must be as well. Our job deals in probabilities not certainties. When we enter a position it is at best a probability. At what point does it ever become a certainty? Even if it moves our way and we get our stop to say Cost+, there's still no guarantee it will continue to go where we thought or pay off as we expect. If it goes against us we accept the initial risk we set but where is it written we "must" allow that full risk to be lost? This is where I went wrong many times thru my learning curve and I think it's important (for new traders especially) to never "marry the trade" (Set and forget). If price isn't acting according to my initial view rather quickly then 1) My initial view was probably wrong or 2) Something in the market may have changed. In either case, I'll normally get out before my full risk is lost and reevaluate.

For me, every single trade (whether scalping or longer term) is a constant evaluation process until the true outcome is revealed. Only once it's covered at BE or better does it become a "Set & Forget" trade for me.

Threw a couple baby trades on a GJ 1m as I typed this to illustrate. These are now "free" trades (plus a pip) and cost me nothing to see if I'm right or wrong.

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Of course I'll still constantly monitor it's progress to maximize the return as best I can. But for the most part, once covered in profit I won't touch it. (Can't tell you how many times I closed a trade I should have held for longer ) ... lol

Once it's "free" let it be.
Ghost Rider - WWTBMD?
 
 
  • Post #11
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  • May 25, 2016 7:02am May 25, 2016 7:02am
  •  shellsnail
  • Joined Aug 2012 | Status: Trends, Levels, Confirmation, Bayes | 1,834 Posts
Thanks for the all replies thus far. Appreciate all of them. Will probably do a summary from time to time here to see what we have got.

Quoting albchr
Disliked
These are now "free" trades (plus a pip) and cost me nothing to see if I'm right or wrong. Of course I'll still constantly monitor it's progress to maximize the return as best I can. But for the most part, once covered in profit I won't touch it. (Can't tell you how many times I closed a trade I should have held for longer ) ... lol Once it's "free" let it be.
Ignored
Can I play Devil's Advocate for awhile here? No doubt it's a very "psychologically" attractive way to think that once it's in profit it's fine. But with my experience trading the shorter TFs, I find that given the uncertainty inherent in markets, it always makes sense to "take some off" at key levels where the opposite trade may be favourable. More often than not price will come in and you get a chance to add your initial size back at a better price. IF it really blasts through the key level (which happens about 10% of the time), you can always add on the quick retraces.

The only question in my mind is how much should I take off at these levels. I suppose it depends on the probability one thinks a reversal/retracement is likely. At one extreme, it could be 100% (i.e. take profit point), at the other extreme it could be as little as 20%. But it seems to me that if we are trading intraday or if we are at the charts, not taking some off would be inefficient. Often price will come back to right where we entered. It's to do with the Bayesian nature of the market. Things just happen and we don't know why or how.
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  • Post #12
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  • May 25, 2016 7:09am May 25, 2016 7:09am
  •  albchr
  • Joined Mar 2009 | Status: Member | 25,480 Posts
Not to clutter the thread but another "big idea" for me has always been "take some and leave some". On the above GJ trades, I've banked the weaker of the two and left the stronger covered BE+. If it get's hit so what? My account has already increased some.

This allows two things to happen for me. It either get's hit for no loss or the trade continues into more profit. It also gives me the chance to load another should price return to, or near that weaker entry and without taking out the stronger one.
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Ghost Rider - WWTBMD?
 
 
  • Post #13
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  • May 25, 2016 7:12am May 25, 2016 7:12am
  •  albchr
  • Joined Mar 2009 | Status: Member | 25,480 Posts
Quoting shellsnail
Disliked
Thanks for the all replies thus far. Appreciate all of them. Will probably do a summary from time to time here to see what we have got. {quote} Can I play Devil's Advocate for awhile here? No doubt it's a very "psychologically" attractive way to think that once it's in profit it's fine. But with my experience trading the shorter TFs, I find that given the uncertainty inherent in markets, it always makes sense to "take some off" at key levels where the opposite trade may be favourable. More often than not price will come in and you get a chance...
Ignored
LOL ... Beat me too it! ...
Ghost Rider - WWTBMD?
 
 
  • Post #14
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  • May 25, 2016 7:36am May 25, 2016 7:36am
  •  skillz16
  • Joined Mar 2015 | Status: Member | 1,422 Posts
I'd say one of, if not the most important thing for me has been this:

Focus on the price! No indecipherable oscillators and signals based on something highly derivative. Only use something based off of price, that can be plotted on top of a price chart, and that I can visually validate. That's right: If I do this right, I can usually just eyeball a lot of chart data to have it tell me if my strategy would have worked.


Related to that:
Due to data limitations and execution limitations, backtests often do not tell close to the real story. Sometimes the backtest can look bad due to some minor data issue, but the system still works really well. In fact, some of the better systems I have look somewhat unsuccessful in full backtests.

*I usually pull my models into R for a full backtest using "quantstrat" since I feel like "microstructure issues" can be better modeled in theee versus the MT4 Strategy Tester - or at least that I have enough control over them.


Other important item:
Have the computer run the overall risk control based on a system. But then, you can also "prop" trade your own and see if you can help/do better where the computer is weak.


Also one of the most important:
Track your expectancy through time and try to be sure that you have a positive edge. As sure as possible that is.
(Avg Win * Win %) - (Avg Loss * Loss %)


One more:
Use Trade Explorers from this site. They really help with the point above (track expectancy, etc.) in realtime.

Those are my best for now.
 
 
  • Post #15
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  • May 25, 2016 8:13am May 25, 2016 8:13am
  •  simond2002
  • Joined May 2012 | Status: ... | 1,939 Posts
Quoting shellsnail
Disliked
To succeed, traders have to learn the skill of "arriving at hopelessness" quickly. Take too long, and your account gets blown. Once we arrive at hopelessness, we are at a powerful place to make good decisions. We stop clinging on to the past and we can start anew.
Ignored
If there's a couple of sentences that really got me thinking today then it's the above. I have a feeling that in all its trading manifestations, "hope" is probably our biggest enemy. Someone once wrote that "hope is not an indicator" - it's one of my personal favourite quotes. Whoever penned it has "been there" I think. Hope is the thing that will keep a trader believing that he's going to see the market through someone else's eyes. It'll wed one trader to another in the "hope" that by some form of osmosis he'll turn losing into winning. It'll glue a person to a totally losing course in the "hope" that one day soon, the wind will just come along and fill his sails and everything will "click" into place. In all its trading guises, I think "hope" is a savage.

Unless a trader is fortunate enough to have a genuine real-life trustworthy mentor then I reckon it's his destiny to some point arrive at "hopelessness". All of the experiences, the adventures, the chats, the charts, the PDFs, everything just melts into oblivion as the constant losses, flawed analysis, and distorted thought process eventually grind the person into a place of profound hopelessness. Traditionally I think this is seen as a very negative space to be in be but in this instance I'd suggest otherwise. I'd actually suggest that this level of hopelessness is potentially the most powerfully positive moment a student of the markets will experience - it's his moment of truth.

When a person reaches this level of hopelessness he'll make a choice. He'll either give up, or he'll carry one. If he carries on he'll do so from the point of complete purity that hopelessness creates. It's cathartic. I'm not suggesting that this is the moment when everything falls into place because it's highly likely not to be the case. But for sure, this moment can "maketh the man". If he carries on trading, he'll never again veer from the path of learning to see the market through his own eyes.

Some time ago I started to think of the "big idea" as being something that could be termed the 3Ms - Method Method Method. I reached the conclusion that one can only arrive at a trading method by seeing the market through our own eyes. Having read the first post, however, I'd add to the statement and say that perhaps seeing the market through our own eyes is actually a step along a journey that begins with hopelessness. I "hope" this is wrong, but I've got a feeling it might be right.
 
 
  • Post #16
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  • May 25, 2016 8:26am May 25, 2016 8:26am
  •  Copernicus
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Apr 2013 | 4,363 Posts
Quoting shellsnail
Disliked
Thanks for the all replies thus far. Appreciate all of them. Will probably do a summary from time to time here to see what we have got. {quote} Can I play Devil's Advocate for awhile here? No doubt it's a very "psychologically" attractive way to think that once it's in profit it's fine. But with my experience trading the shorter TFs, I find that given the uncertainty inherent in markets, it always makes sense to "take some off" at key levels where the opposite trade may be favourable. More often than not price will come in and you get a chance...
Ignored
It's always been tough making a decision around whether to 'take some off' or 'not'. In relation to long term trend trading systems that are working on the underlying philosophy that prices may exhibit extended periods of price directionality which cannot be predicted, one of my concerns with trade intervention is that more often than not, intervention stifles or introduces friction into the system which over time may impede the concept of letting profits run.

Taking profits at times certainly assists in reducing stress and dealing with uncertainty so in that respect, I can see the benefit, however pound for pound, such intervening measures may stifle the full potential of the system.

By trade intervention, we are introducing complexity into the trading system and adopting a predictive view about the future. While this may be suitable and advised for many different trading styles, for a trend follower who simply passively follows price, letting the profits run and cutting losses short, then for this style of trading, intervention when profits are still running detracts from the simplicity of the technique and introduces a parameter that restricts price action's ability to breathe.
 
 
  • Post #17
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  • May 25, 2016 8:31am May 25, 2016 8:31am
  •  dancingphil
  • Joined May 2009 | Status: Member | 667 Posts
Bayes was a smart guy; much smarter than your average peanut here in FF.

The 2 points that you have made that I agree with are that;

A) probability matters, and that

B) markets do move in the moment, tick by tick.

And so what looked great at the opening of a trade may/may not hold true from the very first tick of new data coming in.

GREAT traders trade the probabilities, and every new tick involves a recalculation of those probabilities.

As to taking some off the top of a trade argues AGAINST the very sound reasoning of "probability management" - which is in fact the ART of trading.

PROBABILITY MANAGEMENT is the ART of trading successfully.

Taking some off the top is really saying "fuck, I am not so committed to this trade, I better get some cash out and rub one out - because I really have no idea."

KNOWING where you are at within the probabilities of the current moment, and current candle is where real trading gets done.

And yet, almost no one takes into account the probabilities of where they are at pre and post opening/closing trades.

Quoting shellsnail
Disliked
2. Bayesian thinking (aka context matters; the present also matters.) For many traders, the trade ends once it has been placed and a SL and TP is set. Some call this the "Set and Forget" method. No doubt this can appear to be effective, but, at least in theory, it is not the best option. Set and forget completely disregards any new information and relies completely on the original analysis a trader makes. This cannot be the most effective way because new information do matter. News releases or even just random market events and order flow changes...
Ignored
 
 
  • Post #18
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  • May 25, 2016 8:45am May 25, 2016 8:45am
  •  PipMeUp
  • Joined Aug 2011 | Status: Member | 1,325 Posts
Bayesian thinking is also about acknowledging the ambiguity of the market and taking the optimal decision based on this.

Does this chart show a range or a downtrend? If I'm currently short shall I stay with the down trend, take profit, take partial profit, how much, stop and go long maybe? The answer not only depends on the candles but it also depends on the price at which I entered the short position. In this example it's not really possible but we can imagine a similar situation where the short position would be underwater.

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Should later the price reach the top of the range and by the way the top of the trend channel would it make sense to short with the usual 1% risk because I've been told that I shall always risk 1%? Doesn't it make more sense to adapt the MM to the situation; here a confluence of reasons to short, some other times good reasons for reducing?

Trading is no more than modulating the exposure over time after all. TP, SL or closing half the position are just special cases of a Bayesian MM.
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
 
 
  • Post #19
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  • Edited 9:46am May 25, 2016 9:33am | Edited 9:46am
  •  skyway
  • Joined Sep 2013 | Status: Member | 1,209 Posts
For objective models where even a robot will come to the same conclusion, then the plausibility of whatever is more readily accepted. It's in the subjective models which relies on individuals belief that draws a lot of contention. Managing probability is math hardly an artform which must derive it's nature from the subjective discretion applied.
 
 
  • Post #20
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  • May 25, 2016 11:04am May 25, 2016 11:04am
  •  Atokys
  • Joined Aug 2015 | Status: Member | 745 Posts
Quoting PipMeUp
Disliked
Does this chart show a range or a downtrend? If I'm currently short shall I stay with the down trend, take profit, take partial profit, how much, stop and go long maybe? The answer not only depends on...
Ignored
It depends on your very personal and subjective opinion.
Quoting Copernicus
Disliked
It's always been tough making a decision around whether to 'take some off' or 'not'. In relation to long term trend trading systems that are working on the underlying philosophy that prices may exhibit extended periods of price directionality which cannot be predicted, one of my concerns with trade intervention is that more often than not, intervention stifles or introduces friction into the system which over time may impede the concept of letting profits run. Taking profits at times certainly assists in reducing stress and dealing with...
Ignored
I observe that trend followers tend only to reduce exposure of profitable positions to ensure that positions stay in line with a predefined risk budget. The decision is never whimsical or borne out of irrational fear as implied here on FF. Of course, Mr C, you probably understand this already and I am merely stating this for the benefit of others.
 
 
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