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Forex Dream Chasers - The 90% rule of randomness

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  • First Post: Jun 14, 2015 1:37pm Jun 14, 2015 1:37pm
  •  Gobigfx
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jul 2012 | 133 Posts
So I've been wanting to write this post for a few years but I knew it would meet with a lot of anger and objection but here goes anyways.

You all are living an imaginary dream.

A career as a retail trader long term (7 plus years) is almost impossible, the ratio is not 5% its more like 1%.

I have been trading for a very long time and the only reason that I have survived multiple market conditions is because I was mentored for 1 year as a floor trader and then for another few years as a desk trader for a few institutions.

After I left the "professional" world of trading I lost a lot of money and even recently lost some money trying to figure things out and it was rough but overall I have survived and prospered.

The biggest lie that you have been told is that "Price movement is predictable" and simple to understand and that some indicator or chart reading method will somehow turn you into a professional trader. Before I address this lie I want to discuss what a true "professional" trader looks like from my world.

As a professional institutional trader we got salaries and bonus's (if we preformed well) but we didn't make income from trading profits. We made income from working on trades the firm gave us to manage. So for example Mercedes Benz gave the firm an order for 100 million Euros to hedge the current price vs where they think it will be in 30 days when they deliver their cars to America. They signed a Forward Agreement and our desk gets the order to fill. If we get better then the volume weighted average price over the period of time we get a bonus. Thats what 90% of the forex / currency exchange market is. Large orders that are being "worked" by either an institutional client or a large order thats being placed by a Macro Fund. Some orders are from the producer of products and an equal number are from the consumer of products or services and it all depends on each companies position whether they are buyers or sellers and their time horizons. At any give time we could be working 100 very large orders a day all at different prices and directions based on different time horizons. This goes on at over 200 large institutions day in and day out.

The retail world just does not understand the RANDOMNESS of trading, this is the 2nd biggest lie that you are lead to believe. If you think that price movement is predictable then you are a fool because you just don't understand the randomness of orders hitting the market from all directions "most" of the time.

Most of the time... being 90% of the time ... price movement is random.

So when is price movement not random ?

10% of the time when some information enters the market that changes the randomness and forces the majority of institutions and their clients to adjust their positions to account for the new information.

Just look at any chart and look at when price moves and if you count the total number of bars where price moves in an opposing or changing direction you will see this is about 10% of the time. The rest of the time is just Random Noise of orders being filled back and forth.

Your all staring at all that random noise and your all trying to make sense of the wrong information.




Be careful out there folks
  • Post #2
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  • Jun 14, 2015 2:09pm Jun 14, 2015 2:09pm
  •  Xela
  • | Membership Revoked | Joined Dec 2011 | 376 Posts
Quoting Gobigfx
Disliked
So for example Mercedes Benz gave the firm an order for 100 million Euros to hedge the current price vs where they think it will be in 30 days when they deliver their cars to America. They signed a Forward Agreement and our desk gets the order to fill. If we get better then the volume weighted average price over the period of time we get a bonus. Thats what 90% of the forex / currency exchange market is.
Ignored

Sorry, but (as any institutional trader, economist or anyone else professionally involved in currency-trading will tell you, if you ask them) this is just completely wrong: on the contrary, about 80-90% of the worldwide forex market, these days, is speculative. You have only to look at recent information on sites like Wikipedia and Investopedia (not to mention a whole host of others) to see this.
 
 
  • Post #3
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  • Jun 14, 2015 2:17pm Jun 14, 2015 2:17pm
  •  mvp77
  • | Joined Jul 2012 | Status: Member | 430 Posts
Quoting Gobigfx
Disliked
So I've been wanting to write this post for a few years but I knew it would meet with a lot of anger and objection but here goes anyways. You all are living an imaginary dream. A career as a retail trader long term (7 plus years) is almost impossible, the ratio is not 5% its more like 1%. I have been trading for a very long time and the only reason that I have survived multiple market conditions is because I was mentored for 1 year as a floor trader and then for another few years as a desk trader for a few institutions. After I left the "professional"...
Ignored
 
 
  • Post #4
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  • Jun 14, 2015 2:31pm Jun 14, 2015 2:31pm
  •  smart pivots
  • | Joined Sep 2012 | Status: Member | 154 Posts
subscribed
 
 
  • Post #5
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  • Jun 14, 2015 2:42pm Jun 14, 2015 2:42pm
  •  Davit
  • Joined Feb 2012 | Status: Member | 21,209 Posts
Quoting Gobigfx
Disliked
So I've been wanting to write this post for a few years but I knew it would meet with a lot of anger and objection but here goes anyways. You all are living an imaginary dream. A career as a retail trader long term (7 plus years) is almost impossible, the ratio is not 5% its more like 1%. I have been trading for a very long time and the only reason that I have survived multiple market conditions is because I was mentored for 1 year as a floor trader and then for another few years as a desk trader for a few institutions. After I left the "professional"...
Ignored
This goes against the very idea of a TREND!If price is random how did we get EU from 139 to 105 Random?True if you trading 1-5min charts but not true H4 daily weekly.I disagree with your entire outlook.
Many examples of strong trends like AN AU NU GN GA EN EA etc list goes on.
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In trading, you have to be defensive and aggressive at the same time
 
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  • Post #6
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  • Jun 14, 2015 2:47pm Jun 14, 2015 2:47pm
  •  piphunt11
  • | Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 39 Posts
Quoting Gobigfx
Disliked
So I've been wanting to write this post for a few years but I knew it would meet with a lot of anger and objection but here goes anyways. You all are living an imaginary dream. A career as a retail trader long term (7 plus years) is almost impossible, the ratio is not 5% its more like 1%. I have been trading for a very long time and the only reason that I have survived multiple market conditions is because I was mentored for 1 year as a floor trader and then for another few years as a desk trader for a few institutions. After I left the "professional"...
Ignored
piphunt11
 
 
  • Post #7
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  • Jun 14, 2015 2:48pm Jun 14, 2015 2:48pm
  •  Davit
  • Joined Feb 2012 | Status: Member | 21,209 Posts
Quoting piphunt11
Disliked
{quote}
Ignored
Care to explain why you are so enthusiastic of OP
In trading, you have to be defensive and aggressive at the same time
 
 
  • Post #8
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  • Edited 3:39pm Jun 14, 2015 2:54pm | Edited 3:39pm
  •  Rparm
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 174 Posts
Quoting Gobigfx
Disliked
So for example Mercedes Benz gave the firm an order for 100 million Euros to hedge the current price vs where they think it will be in 30 days when they deliver their cars to America.
Ignored
Hi, Gobigfx interesting thread you started here a few questions for you regarding your post:

"Your all staring at all that random noise and your all trying to make sense of the wrong information."
"for example Mercedes Benz gave the firm an order for 100 million Euros to hedge the current price vs where they think it will be in 30 days when they deliver their cars to America" <- the following statement you made shows that Institutional traders will think/try and predict where price will be heading (speculate)... you then go on to contradict your own post, you say that predicting/speculation of price is hopeless?

"Most of the time... being 90% of the time ... price movement is random." <- What research have you conducted to back up this type of a statement? Where did you pull that 90% from?

Your post has contradicting statements as well as information that has no logical backing. I hope nobody takes this man's post seriously. If you can clarify your opinion with some logical non contradicting information real discussion would be possible.

ps. I personally spend only a fraction of my time trying to predict the market, I find market bias based off of Institutions/Other Reasources and "manage" My R:R and recovery
A Positive Mind, and Positive Spirit lead to True Happiness
 
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  • Post #9
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  • Edited 3:19pm Jun 14, 2015 2:55pm | Edited 3:19pm
  •  skfx
  • Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 537 Posts
Quoting Gobigfx
Disliked
So I've been wanting to write this post for a few years but I knew it would meet with a lot of anger and objection but here goes anyways. You all are living an imaginary dream. A career as a retail trader long term (7 plus years) is almost impossible, the ratio is not 5% its more like 1%. I have been trading for a very long time and the only reason that I have survived multiple market conditions is because I was mentored for 1 year as a floor trader and then for another few years as a desk trader for a few institutions. After I left the "professional"...
Ignored
Couldn't agree more! Funny guy
The bold part below where you use the word 'all', several times. I wouldn't say all, but most.
Very few get it, most don't.
Regards
 
 
  • Post #10
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  • Jun 14, 2015 2:58pm Jun 14, 2015 2:58pm
  •  Xela
  • | Membership Revoked | Joined Dec 2011 | 376 Posts
Quoting Davit
Disliked
{quote} Care to explain why you are so enthusiastic of OP
Ignored

(I know you're not talking to me but ...) to be fair, the essential underlying point of the OP's post, though he hugely overstates it, is correct, i.e. that many amateur traders spend most of their lives being "fooled by randomness" - as Nicholas Nassim Taleb famously put it, in his book of that title.

Unfortunately, though, some of the assertions the OP makes, doubtless in an attempt to lend credibility to his perspective, are themselves laughably mistaken, as illustrated in my post above ... so he's not exactly helping his own cause!
 
 
  • Post #11
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 3:13pm Jun 14, 2015 3:13pm
  •  srt
  • Joined Dec 2012 | Status: On Life's Path | 2,076 Posts
"I have been trading for a very long time and the only reason that I have survived multiple market conditions is because I was mentored for 1 year as a floor trader and then for another few years as a desk trader for a few institutions.

After I left the "professional" world of trading I lost a lot of money and even recently lost some money trying to figure things out and it was rough but overall I have survived and prospered."

Why does a trader go & lose "a lot of money" trading in a market he knows is 90% random AFTER years of experience as a floor trader & desk trader?
 
 
  • Post #12
  • Quote
  • Edited 7:29pm Jun 14, 2015 3:18pm | Edited 7:29pm
  •  Rparm
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 174 Posts
Ok last post here to prove to you ladies and gentlemen that this man's statements are absolutely ridiculous. GoBigFx stated that speculation is hopeless.. yet he himself is a speculative trader as seen in the attached picture and link. Good God man!
I went through the effort of even screen shotting your post just to prevent this type of "misinformation" from spreading, the picture is from http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...28#post5891628​ Post #7 (Post #8 on this (current) thread shows further proof of contradiction done by GoBigFX):

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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How can you say: "Bull market on the A/U maybe for awhile but not for long" you are obviously speculating. Yet you say speculation is Hopeless??

Case Closed. I'll pull the stick out of my butt now but jeez some people just love to spread nonsense!
Forex trading is difficult that's a given but what makes it harder is when people have to constantly filter out ridiculous information from uncredible 15 post users that contradict themselves. Do your research on anything you read in these forums Folks!
What we've learned from this thread: There is no 90% randomness rule, and Institutional Traders do use Speculation! Until next time gentlemen.
A Positive Mind, and Positive Spirit lead to True Happiness
 
 
  • Post #13
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 3:25pm Jun 14, 2015 3:25pm
  •  darko2010
  • Joined Apr 2010 | Status: Trader | 1,025 Posts
Gobigfx, are you trying to make a point or just ranting?

Of course the market is random most of the time, most traders here understand that and look to capitalize on the few daily/weekly/monthly occasions where probabilities favor a direction on a given pair. And of course banks make most of their money by taking commissions, not by proprietary trading, this is basic risk/reward common sense.

So, I ask again, are you trying to make a point?
 
 
  • Post #14
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 3:33pm Jun 14, 2015 3:33pm
  •  Rparm
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 174 Posts
Quoting darko2010
Disliked
Gobigfx, are you trying to make a point or just ranting? Of course the market is random most of the time, most traders here understand that and look to capitalize on the few daily/weekly/monthly occasions where probabilities favor a direction on a given pair. And of course banks make most of their money by taking commissions, not by proprietary trading, this is basic risk/reward common sense. So, I ask again, are you trying to make a point?
Ignored
Brother, he's a Speculative Trader himself saying that Speculation is hopeless, yet he manages to remain a successful trader with no TE or proof of profit just bold contradicting statments? He's more of a Speculative Troll. I'm being a real hard a$$ on this guy's thread for a reason(as seen below):

These types of statements by GoBigFx and other Trolls honestly make it harder for people to trade/develop ideas in regards to trading... especially newbies, because some newbie will read his posts and think "Price is 90% Random" and "Speculation is Hopeless" these statements will influence the trader's performance if they are niave or trust in people like GoBigFX .. All the information stated by GoBigFX has no credible backing whatsoever and contradicts itself several times over as proven in my above posts and Davit's example where he shows that price was moving with some serious bias!
So why do I write all these things: I don't like hearing about people losing due to misinformation, the retail community is here to share knowledge and provide support for traders from all walks of life, we should catch trolls/liars and make the community aware of their actions. Even if that involves roasting the individual in question.

Thanks guys, Rparm, sorry for the Rant
A Positive Mind, and Positive Spirit lead to True Happiness
 
 
  • Post #15
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 3:36pm Jun 14, 2015 3:36pm
  •  darko2010
  • Joined Apr 2010 | Status: Trader | 1,025 Posts
Quoting Rparm
Disliked
{quote} Brother, he's a Speculative Trader himself saying that Speculation is hopeless, yet he manages to remain a successful trader with no TE or proof of profit just bold contradicting statments? He's more of a Speculative Troll. I'm being a real hard a$$ on this guy's thread for a reason(as seen below): These types of statements by GoBigFx and other Trolls honestly make it harder for people to trade/develop dieas in regards to trading especially newbies, because some newbie will read his posts and think "Price is 90% Random" and "Speculation...
Ignored
Got it
 
 
  • Post #16
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 3:39pm Jun 14, 2015 3:39pm
  •  srt
  • Joined Dec 2012 | Status: On Life's Path | 2,076 Posts
If price movement is 90% random, flip a coin 10,000 times(heads=buy, tails=sell) with a computer generator & plot the results on a chart.
Will it look anything like the one below?
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  • Post #17
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 3:41pm Jun 14, 2015 3:41pm
  •  atheer1
  • Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 4,056 Posts
Not because you are not seeing the order of price flow,that it does not exist.From my opinion there is nothing random in any thing that has a price.


atheer1
atheer1
 
 
  • Post #18
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 3:42pm Jun 14, 2015 3:42pm
  •  Don M
  • | Joined May 2012 | Status: Member | 184 Posts
The market is like 1000 wildebeest on the Serengeti. No one animal knows where they are going just as no one price bar tells you where the market is going but the collective ie herd knows where to go in search of food and water. Historically you could map where they went previously but conditions are constantly changing and the herd will always go where it needs to go. Same with the markets, the price rises or falls when most are of the same mind.

As traders we know the markets are mostly random movements however it is our job to wait for less random predictable moves to trade.
Enter Signature
 
 
  • Post #19
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 4:05pm Jun 14, 2015 4:05pm
  •  cakrajaya
  • Joined Oct 2014 | Status: the mighty duck | 1,035 Posts
yes I am a dreamer
we don't predict, we only ride
 
 
  • Post #20
  • Quote
  • Jun 14, 2015 4:13pm Jun 14, 2015 4:13pm
  •  Gobigfx
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jul 2012 | 133 Posts
Well I knew this thread would bring out the Dreamers and "Experts" by the boat loads and its funny to watch people talk for me to defend their own beliefs.

Whenever you challenge peoples understanding or perceptions of reality it usually results in mass hysteria.

The point of this thread is that I will demonstrate for you the true randomness of price that's easy enough to do but if you stop looking at the random and start to focus on the times that matter the most you will start to see the reality of market movements.

Before I do that though I want to gauge the amount of intelligence in this forum as this is one of my first and probably my last thread I will ever start for the retail trading world.

So feel free to share more of your beliefs about what the Market is and does and at the same time let me know how much money that has allowed you to make over the last 7 years. I am not interested in anything less then a 7 year track record as the sample size will be too small.

More to come soon folks be careful out there Randomness is a bitch
 
 
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