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Taxes in Germany

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  • Post #1
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  • First Post: Mar 7, 2015 4:46pm Mar 7, 2015 4:46pm
  •  Bernardi
  • | Joined Mar 2015 | Status: Member | 104 Posts
Hi

I could not find a big german forex forum, so i hope there are some german traders here who are able to help me.

Its very hard to find all the necessary information about taxing on the Web, what i figured out so far is, that i need to pay 25%.
I dont have a german broker, so I have to handle taxes on my own.
But when do i have to pay? by the end of the year? Whenever i withdraw the money from the broker to my bank account?

Any experience/advise ?

Thank You!
  • Post #2
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  • Mar 8, 2015 4:18am Mar 8, 2015 4:18am
  •  Forex37
  • | Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 557 Posts
Quoting Bernardi
Disliked
Hi I could not find a big german forex forum, so i hope there are some german traders here who are able to help me. Its very hard to find all the necessary information about taxing on the Web, what i figured out so far is, that i need to pay 25%. I dont have a german broker, so I have to handle taxes on my own. But when do i have to pay? by the end of the year? Whenever i withdraw the money from the broker to my bank account? Any experience/advise ? Thank You!
Ignored
IF you are not a resident of Germany, you are not a german tax subject, so no taxation at all.

IF you are a german resident, you are a german tax subject, so taxation:

IF your broker is a german firm they will deduct 25 % plus 5% on these (total 26.25%) when the gain has been made (trade closed).Another ca 7% on these 25& will be deducted if you are a church member.

IF your broker is not based in Germany, he will deduct nothing, but you will have to declare those trades in the following annual tax form.

IF your toal german tax liability from all incomes is below 25%, you might ask for taxation according to your personal rate.

But there are many more details. Taxwise Germany is worse than hell, so ask a tax advisor ( at € 300 /hr).

Regards
 
 
  • Post #3
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  • Mar 8, 2015 11:49am Mar 8, 2015 11:49am
  •  Bernardi
  • | Joined Mar 2015 | Status: Member | 104 Posts
All right, so the annual tax form it is, thank you.
And do you know when my profit becomes actually earned profit? I mean, lets say I deposit money to the broker, and make some money, but i don't withdraw any money, it is still on the brokeraccount, a year is over and i am doing my annual tax form.
Do i have to declare the trades although the money is on the brokeraccount?
Or may i wait until i withdraw the money to my german bank account? Cause it could be possible to lose the money before i withdraw xD
 
 
  • Post #4
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  • Mar 8, 2015 12:42pm Mar 8, 2015 12:42pm
  •  Forex37
  • | Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 557 Posts
It is rather complex, but general rule: When ever it could be reasonable to take your money, they will. When you made a possible profit they will take it, even if you haven`t received any cash. But if you made a loss, you possibly can`t reclaim the tax loss. Within the german tax form you have to state, if you have accounts at foreign financial institutions. So you have to provide the account statements from these. And if you made any profit you will be ased to pay the tax AND to pay tax in advance the following years.

If for example you write options now on GM due Jan 2016, you will receive a lot of cash in 2015. This a taxable profit. Even if the price of GM would already fall within 2015 you must pay the tax. When you are assigned the stock in 2016 and sell it with a hefty loss, you can`t use the loss,as long as you haven`t made profits with stocks.
 
 
  • Post #5
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  • Mar 8, 2015 1:01pm Mar 8, 2015 1:01pm
  •  Bernardi
  • | Joined Mar 2015 | Status: Member | 104 Posts
So if i make profit, keep the money on the trading account, and provide the account statement, i would be able to pay the taxes through my bank account and leave the trading account untouched to have the full amount available for trading, right? At least that makes sense to me, would be great.
 
 
  • Post #6
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  • Mar 8, 2015 1:06pm Mar 8, 2015 1:06pm
  •  Forex37
  • | Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 557 Posts
Quoting Bernardi
Disliked
So if i make profit, keep the money on the trading account, and provide the account statement, i would be able to pay the taxes through my bank account and leave the trading account untouched to have the full amount available for trading, right? At least that makes sense to me, would be great.
Ignored
Yes
 
 
  • Post #7
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  • Mar 8, 2015 1:17pm Mar 8, 2015 1:17pm
  •  Bernardi
  • | Joined Mar 2015 | Status: Member | 104 Posts
Very good, that helps a lot!

Now everything i read about that topic makes sense, thank you!
 
 
  • Post #8
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  • Jun 10, 2020 4:51am Jun 10, 2020 4:51am
  •  Anirudhk91
  • | Joined Jun 2020 | Status: Junior Member | 2 Posts
Hi, I am a resident in Germany but an Indian citizen. I am trading forex in Germany with hugos way. should I be filing my taxes in Germany or India?
Hugos way does not operate in India. I am a tax payer in Germany.
 
 
  • Post #9
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  • Jun 10, 2020 2:30pm Jun 10, 2020 2:30pm
  •  Forex37
  • | Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 557 Posts
Quoting Anirudhk91
Disliked
Hi, I am a resident in Germany but an Indian citizen. I am trading forex in Germany with hugos way. should I be filing my taxes in Germany or India? Hugos way does not operate in India. I am a tax payer in Germany.
Ignored
If you have your residency in Germany you must file your trading income in Germany - where ever it comes from!
 
 
  • Post #10
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  • Jun 12, 2020 6:28am Jun 12, 2020 6:28am
  •  Anirudhk91
  • | Joined Jun 2020 | Status: Junior Member | 2 Posts
Ok. Thank you so much. That helps a lot.
One more thing, it will be filed as normal income tax right? or there is some special tax regualtions for it?
 
 
  • Post #11
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  • Jun 14, 2020 7:31am Jun 14, 2020 7:31am
  •  Forex37
  • | Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 557 Posts
Quoting Anirudhk91
Disliked
Ok. Thank you so much. That helps a lot. One more thing, it will be filed as normal income tax right? or there is some special tax regualtions for it?
Ignored
Already answered in post 2! But huge changes (to worse) for next year.
 
 
  • Post #12
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  • Jun 14, 2020 9:20am Jun 14, 2020 9:20am
  •  thevisitor
  • Joined Sep 2019 | Status: Member | 1,487 Posts
Quoting Forex37
Disliked
{quote} Already answered in post 2! But huge changes (to worse) for next year.
Ignored

so true
https://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=975445
 
 
  • Post #13
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  • Jun 14, 2020 4:35pm Jun 14, 2020 4:35pm
  •  lddd
  • Joined May 2009 | Status: Member | 3,108 Posts
It’s about 26% tax you pay in Germany on capital gains. If you’re trading with a broker outside of Germany, the broker most likely will no take care of taxes and you have to make your own report by the end of the year for win and loss. You don’t have to write down every single trade here.

But it you really make consistent wins from trading year after year you should have the money to forward this to a professional consultant as taxation can be very individual and less or more complex for German residents.
 
1
  • Post #14
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  • Jun 22, 2020 10:53am Jun 22, 2020 10:53am
  •  ricki72
  • | Joined Jun 2008 | Status: Member | 355 Posts | Online Now
With this new law, trading in Germany ist not interesting anymore...
How about if you trade with someone else´s capital, like a prop firm?
Then you have to register a trade (in german: Gewerbe anmelden) or you open a limited company, but as i read it is not that easy.
Does anyone from Germany know about this?
I called several tax consultants, but they have no idea about trading and taxes
 
 
  • Post #15
  • Quote
  • Edited 5:15pm Jun 22, 2020 2:57pm | Edited 5:15pm
  •  Sesamstrasse
  • Joined Jun 2013 | Status: Membership Rewarded | 3,149 Posts
Quoting ricki72
Disliked
With this new law, trading in Germany ist not interesting anymore... How about if you trade with someone else´s capital, like a prop firm? Then you have to register a trade (in german: Gewerbe anmelden) or you open a limited company, but as i read it is not that easy. Does anyone from Germany know about this? I called several tax consultants, but they have no idea about trading and taxes
Ignored
Jap--
2 Möglichkeiten:
z.B. ins benachbarte Luxemburg umziehen--

oder:
Gewerbe anmelden, Mobilfunkvertrag abschließen/Räume anmieten?? (zwecks utility bill zur Vorlage beim Broker wg. Kontoeröffnung)

Es empfiehlt sich gleich haftungsbeschränkt durch eine GmbH oder UG aufzutreten, da der "private/nonpro" Status und die Einlagensicherung dann nicht mehr greift.

Das Netz bietet da eine Vielzahl von Möglichkeiten.

Trade well
The future(s) is mine!Risiko birgt immer auch die Chance.
 
 
  • Post #16
  • Quote
  • Jun 23, 2020 4:36am Jun 23, 2020 4:36am
  •  ricki72
  • | Joined Jun 2008 | Status: Member | 355 Posts | Online Now
Danke @Sesamstrasse. Ich werde mich mal umsehen.

Wie finde ich in DE einen guten Steuerberater, der sich mit Trading und all diese Sachen auskennt?
Ich habe schon mit 3 Kanzleien aus meiner Umgebung telefoniert und die haben mir zu verstehen gegeben, dass sie davon keine Ahnung haben.
Die Suche im Netz hat ergeben, dass nur ganz wenige auf diesem Gebiet spezialisiert sind und die antworten nicht mal auf meine Email.
Außer eine Kanzlei, die laut ihrer Webseite auf Kryptowährungen spezialisiert ist (nicht Forex, oder sonstige Tradingformen), aber für einen Erstgespräch gleich 400 € verlangen!
 
 
  • Post #17
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  • Jun 24, 2020 2:49am Jun 24, 2020 2:49am
  •  Forex37
  • | Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 557 Posts
Der gute Steuerberater braucht derzeit selbst Hilfe, da die Gesetzeslage für reale Personen - im Gegensatz zu juristischen Personen (UG, GmbH ..) völlig unklar ist, ausser: Schlimm soll es werden, für die bösen Spekulanten!!! Wie die geplanten (finaziellen) Züchtigungen vorgenommen werden sollen wird weitere Anweisungen, Durchführungsverornungen, Erlasse und Erläuterungen durch das Scholzministerium festgelegt. Aus Corona bedingten Arbeitsüberlastungen ist man noch nicht dazu gekommen, angeblich August als frühester termin.

Bei vorsorglich vorgenommener Gründung von Kapitalgesellschaften bitte bedenken: Was verlangen die Broker als Mindestkapitalisierung des Kto`s? Bei Gründung im Ausland nicht vergessen: Nicht der Sitz der Gesellschaft bestimmt den steuerberechtigten Fiskus alleine, sondern die Deutschen kassieren VOLL (eventuell zusätzlich) bei inländischer Willensbildung. D.h. bei inländischem Sitz der willensbildenden Geschäftsführung, Wohnsitz des Entscheiders inländische Steuer! Also den Arsch ins Ausland bewegen - ohne dt. Wohnung, Kto,Tel, Kreditkarte ...

und denkt daran, die Steufa ist weder faul noch doof, viele Steuerfahnder haben einen starken Jagdtrieb, sind auch privat Computerfreaks und kennen sich mit IP-Verschleierung etc bestens aus, also nix mit Server in UK, VPS und EAs laufen lassen!!
 
 
  • Post #18
  • Quote
  • Jun 24, 2020 3:13am Jun 24, 2020 3:13am
  •  Drolph
  • Joined Jun 2015 | Status: Member | 699 Posts | Online Now
Quoting Forex37
Disliked
Der gute Steuerberater braucht derzeit selbst Hilfe, da die Gesetzeslage für reale Personen - im Gegensatz zu juristischen Personen (UG, GmbH ..) völlig unklar ist, ausser: Schlimm soll es werden, für die bösen Spekulanten!!! Wie die geplanten (finaziellen) Züchtigungen vorgenommen werden sollen wird weitere Anweisungen, Durchführungsverornungen, Erlasse und Erläuterungen durch das Scholzministerium festgelegt. Aus Corona bedingten Arbeitsüberlastungen ist man noch nicht dazu gekommen, angeblich August als frühester termin. Bei vorsorglich vorgenommener...
Ignored
Warum jetzt alle denken, dass die Gründung einer GmbH/UG die Lösung wäre.. Ich weiß aus eigener Erfahrung welche Abgaben dir hier auf lange Sicht jegliches Chance/Risiko Verhältnis zunichte machen. Zumal die Trading UGs der logische nächste Schritt des Feldzuges der SPD wären.

Gewerbeschein aufs Trading als Privatperson gibt's sowieso nicht.

Also, anstatt Panik zu schieben, EIER haben und sich sachlich dem kriminellen Vorgehen der Politik entgegenstellen. Der Steuerirrsinn wird keine Anwendung finden. Wehrt euch!

Schon fleißig gespendet?

Inserted Video


https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/8pMcPb...
 
 
  • Post #19
  • Quote
  • Jun 25, 2020 2:18pm Jun 25, 2020 2:18pm
  •  ricki72
  • | Joined Jun 2008 | Status: Member | 355 Posts | Online Now
Quoting Drolph
Disliked
{quote} Warum jetzt alle denken, dass die Gründung einer GmbH/UG die Lösung wäre.. Ich weiß aus eigener Erfahrung welche Abgaben dir hier auf lange Sicht jegliches Chance/Risiko Verhältnis zunichte machen.
Ignored
Ich habe die Frage der GmbH/UG nur als Möglichkeit in Betracht gezogen, wenn man für eine Prop Firm tradet (d.h. mit Fremdgeld).
Wenn man mit eigenm Geld tradet, braucht man kein Unternehmen zu gründen.

In dem Thread über das neue Gesetz wird jetzt behauptet: Forex ist nicht davon betroffen!

Die Suche nach einem Steuerberater, der sich auskennt und auch noch Zeit hat, gestaltet sich recht schwierig!
Macht ihr eure Steuererklärungen selbst?
Ist jemand dabei, der für eine Prop Firm tradet?
 
 
  • Post #20
  • Quote
  • Jun 26, 2020 3:11am Jun 26, 2020 3:11am
  •  Forex37
  • | Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Member | 557 Posts
Quoting ricki72
Disliked
{quote} ........
Ich habe die Frage der GmbH/UG nur als Möglichkeit in Betracht gezogen, wenn man für eine Prop Firm tradet (d.h. mit Fremdgeld). ...............
Ignored
Wenn Du als kleine Firma mit Fremdgeld arbeitest, wird sich die BAFIN mit Dir beschäftigen, Du bist ja kein DAX Unternehmen.
 
 
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