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Anyone trading with a Prop firm 2 replies

prop firm new model - my trading journey 869 replies

So I accepted a Prop Trading job in South Beach Miami 43 replies

Attachments: Prop Firm Hub
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Prop Firm Hub

Quoting Nsak3y
Would be curious if they have changed their opinion about scalpers.
Not really, all I got from support was "do not base your strategy on a few seconds trades". They said it would be okay if "sometimes?" you had to close fast.

When I asked how much time between open/close would be considered as the prohibited "tick scalping" they replied something around 5 sec. When I said ok I will use > 5 sec in my trades there was silence in the audience.(crickets)

Then, I had to ask what is the exact time limit between open/close, they said this would scare off traders so they will not introduce any time limits, just don't base your strategy on few seconds trades, that is all I could get from them.

It's ok, their house..
Quoting Fagin
A 6 month commitment is a reasonable timeframe IF the carrot at the other end is worth chasing….
-If I am being completely objective here, it could also serve as a good way to accumulate a lot of trading data (for them). Six months is a long time, but I suppose linking it up with your trade copier would not be such trouble. It would still require some trust, though.

Quoting qazaq
Not really ... It's ok, their house..
-Thanks for the information. It seems that nothing has changed, then. Difficult to argue with their-house-their-rules, but it is certainly not the right approach, and even strengthens any argument that they are in the 'failed challenges' business. If they are truly pushing some trades to live market, then all trading conditions should match that of a live market. Just my opinion.
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-If I am being completely objective here, it could also serve as a good way to accumulate a lot of trading data (for them). Six months is a long time, but I suppose linking it up with your trade copier would not be such trouble. It would still require some trust, though. {quote}-Thanks for the information. It seems that nothing has changed, then. Difficult to argue with their-house-their-rules, but it is certainly not the right approach, and even strengthens any argument that they are in the 'failed challenges' business. If they are truly...
Hi Nsak3y

In the 10yrs of doing this the only time I have ever encountered someone concerned that their data is going to be reverse engineered is from people who are not that experienced in the industry. I am not taking a shot at you or minimising a concern. I am just trying to share a perspective that its not as easy or as desirable as one might think.

PsyQuation had a database of more than 100k trading accounts, we used that data to mine and identify patterns of poor trader behaviour and good trader behaviour. It would be near impossible to turn that data into an optimal strategy. Maybe somebody with better computer processing capability could but our data science team was up there with the best in machine learning and it was damn hard to just find statistically robust insights from the data as it is so chaotic i.e. noisy with an incredibly low signal to noise ratio.
Quoting ditto.trade
{quote} Hi Nsak3y In the 10yrs of doing this the only time I have ever encountered someone concerned that their data is going to be reverse engineered is from people who are not that experienced in the industry. I am not taking a shot at you or minimising a concern. I am just trying to share a perspective that its not as easy or as desirable as one might think. PsyQuation had a database of more than 100k trading accounts, we used that data to mine and identify patterns of poor trader behaviour and good trader behaviour. It would be near impossible...
Least of my worries... good luck making any sense of my chaos!
Been giving some more thought to the Demo accounts capital accelerator, sorry for hijacking the thread but I am learning what the community we want to serve thinks is fair and reasonable.

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I need to think about the finer details, but I think this is a potentially very interesting opportunity for a trader who doesn't have access to surplus cash but believes they are a good trader. In this example where we provide the trader with a $10k demo account they can essentially fold that 10k plus the profits made up to a total of $20k into The Hub program. This could see a good trader managing a potential $200k after only 10 months.

With $200k and a very good year of 50% return that will be profits of $100k with a 20% performance fee giving the trader $20k.

Interested to hear thoughts, thanks again for the platform @mastermind you haven't kicked me off yet
Quoting ditto.trade
Hi Nsak3y In the 10yrs of doing this the only time I have ever encountered someone concerned that their data is going to be reverse engineered is from people who are not that experienced in the industry.
-Probably better to ask me if that was actually my concern before making condescending assumptions.
Quoting ditto.trade
Been giving some more thought to the Demo accounts capital accelerator, sorry for hijacking the thread but I am learning what the community we want to serve thinks is fair and reasonable. {image} I need to think about the finer details, but I think this is a potentially very interesting opportunity for a trader who doesn't have access to surplus cash but believes they are a good trader. In this example where we provide the trader with a $10k demo account they can essentially fold that 10k plus the profits made up to a total of $20k into The Hub...
hi Mike,

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huh?
so why anyone bother for a mere 6 months delay to put 20k his own money at risk ( the normal hub rule, after 4 months 10x match) vs. just delay a little with a zero risk zero cost demo?

if anything, real acct/money at risk does have an effect on mind and emotions.
"djxput" was kind to type this message, so i dont have to:
https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...8#post13877808

the core, regarding MFF challenges, stage #1 and #2 being a demo account:
On the MFF website it lists how people do with their account.
Im not sure if I am reading it right but this :

  1. Passed phase 1: 18%

  2. Passed phase 2: 31% of traders who passed phase 1
  3. Reached first profit split: 4% of traders who pass phase 2

Does this mean if you have 10,000 people 1800 pass phase 1, 558 pass phase 2 and 22 actually get a profit split and not crash out so thats what .2% get a profit split am I really reading that correctly?

and YES, his math is correct there.

IF you really want to make Ditto more 'inclusive', then there is the option to lower the minimum live equity to 500-1000$ in exchange for extending the stages for 1-1 months, but leaving the live account aspect. the actual, real profits in turn can be used to scale things up.

of course, in theory.
and that where the real catch of retail prop trading lies, especially with those lower performance fees options: scaling up either takes forever, or stops at a level where careful, defensive trading still wont be enough to actually produce those appealing profit share where the own equity can really grow quick.

lets be realistic for a moment.
take 'the Hub', for example...the up to 500k sounds good....but that requires 50k own money. most of the retail traders on the forum dont have access to such risk capital.
the other hand 5000$ own money starts one out, but if say making 3% months, @20% perf fee, that will take quite a forever to scale own equity to 50k to max the 500k offer out!
believe you did a study into the average account age of profitable and losing accounts....i think safely can conclude that starting 5000$, the account is unlikely to last that long to get to the max end of the offer.
someone can work out the math if really interested,
in a simplified way: 5000$ @3% mo =150$. *20% perf fee (x10 multiplier, after 4 months) = 300$! a month

the other hand, stands the "PRO" offer at Ditto.
2 yrs account history. reasonable
2 million AUM?
one doesn't have to be a genius to know that no traders will swarm the sign up with this option from Forexfactory!
or anywhere, coming from real retail.
and even then, what for? 100K extra fund @20%....would that level that offer would really make sense? +5% AUM? idk. maybe yes. maybe not.

the sweetspot, once again, is remained untouched, sadly.

traders who maybe can put 10-50k skin in the game, but in exchange have a real appealing payout schedule ( cash flow in retail level is a major drag! and could write a whole study about it, but wont have that much time to waste for nothing), and a goal where access to AUM of 2-5 million is a possibility.

maybe i miss a few points, or didn't understand the offer in every aspects, including but not limited to the hub, the pro option, or even the not mentioned copy trading. ( ah, someone mentioned IP. re:copy, would love to know that it is like a PAMM and open trades not shown, or all visible, and someone can easily knock off, rougue copy from their MT4 with an investor password login to a larger acct with no payment. could it happen? hint: could.)

Mike, if you want a real conversation, you can always skype me
typing takes a lots of time, some editing, and probably in the end still not touching much of the parts of the topic.

if anything, i would hope Ditto slips into the gap between the darwinex/axiselect offer and the pseudo props of MFF/FTMO and others.
there is a big gap to fill, but looks like Ditto not going for that sweetspot. too bad.

happy trading!
Z

ps. sorry everyone, got a bit long post. my only excuse it is on topic.

there is always, always another trade!!
Quoting ditto.trade
Been giving some more thought to the Demo accounts capital accelerator, sorry for hijacking the thread but I am learning what the community we want to serve thinks is fair and reasonable. {image} I need to think about the finer details, but I think this is a potentially very interesting opportunity for a trader who doesn't have access to surplus cash but believes they are a good trader. In this example where we provide the trader with a $10k demo account they can essentially fold that 10k plus the profits made up to a total of $20k into The Hub...
Not likely to kick you off.

What I see so far is another opportunity being offered to good traders by your firm and you are simply attempting to explain it in a clear manner.

I have comments to be made but will leave them for later except to say that the performance fee offered is perhaps far removed from what is currently being offered by other 'competitors' in this space.

Nevertheless, from my brief research thus far your firm offers something they don't and that is direct connection to a regulated AFSL company, which in my opinion is a big plus.

You are welcome to keep posting here if you wish because as I said before your firm offers traders another opportunity, whether they think the performance fee is worth it or not is up to them but it certainly deserves further investigation and ultimately due diligence.

Comments are always welcome here from either your firm or interested traders.

Masterrmind ...........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
Quoting ditto.trade
Been giving some more thought to the Demo accounts capital accelerator, sorry for hijacking the thread but I am learning what the community we want to serve thinks is fair and reasonable. {image} I need to think about the finer details, but I think this is a potentially very interesting opportunity for a trader who doesn't have access to surplus cash but believes they are a good trader. In this example where we provide the trader with a $10k demo account they can essentially fold that 10k plus the profits made up to a total of $20k into The Hub...
20% performance fee seems to be an industry average for this kind of set up, you will know better than me I expect. What will be important is how the pay out schedule is going to be structured? Are you paying every month? Does the account balance reset like MFF and FTMO or do we continue to trade the balance and you pay us on a highwater mark basis per period?

I think anything longer than a 4 week period would start to affect trader engagement, I know some firms pay 3 monthly which is a non starter if you want to attract traders from the current online prop space.

Also keeping it very simple with a Sharpe Ratio and Drawdown criteria is all that's needed in my very humble opinion, someone mentioned another provider a couple of posts back, you only have to look at those guys to learn how not to do it.... (personal opinion only by the way and on balance they are a good broker but that's all).
20% performance fee is fine if AUM is +$50M but @ $2M AUM it is somewhat abusive,
nor is it competitive when compared to other options in the market
Thanks so much Mastermind and Fagin really appreciate it. I think the monthly payout is a good one and was something I used to get asked about a lot.

As a long time trader, I am 50yrs old been trading since age 13 so that is 37yrs of experience 20+ as a fulltime trader. I have seen so many traders come and go and not make a long term living from this incredible occupation. Here is my advice and it may not appeal to most of the people reading this. It is very rare to be able to make a sustainable living eating what you kill from performance fees if you are living in a built up city.

Naturally every one has their own standard of living and needs different amounts. For instance I shared in my daily newsletter yesterday that it costs $459k to educate a child at a private school in Sydney. I have thankfully managed to put 2 kids through this ridiculously expensive system. My point is that for people to make a sustainable living from trading is really difficult. The pressure and stress is enormous and when it is the only income you are living off then it becomes very much more stressful. Plus we all know that you don't only make money so their will be drawdowns, this makes the stress even more.

Given all that I have said I think if you can develop a strategy that allows you to earn supplemental income and not be totally dependent on your trading returns you might find an acceleration program like ours very beneficial. I will say another thing that is often overlooked. It is important to find a mutually beneficial partnership. What I mean is that it is no good for the allocator to just see the trader as a number and its equally important that the trader feels that the allocator has their back and wants to grow together.

What I am trying to say is that traders should realise that getting to manage an account where an allocator will give it some sort of independent 3rd party credibility is worth a lot. Secondly almost everyone I come across in the retail space makes the mistake of thinking that a long track record is not important. There is good reason why a 2 or 4 year track record with lets say a Sharpe Ratio of 0.75 is worth so much more to me than a 6 month track record of SR 1.5 it is easy to have a good run but to continuously produce decent returns is worth a lot.

We have raised more than $100m to allocate over the years and my intention is for Ditto is to replicate that and more and become the next Millennium (multi-strat hedge fund). So its important for people to consider the roadmap of our business and where we ultimately want to take our community. We are definitely not for everyone and good luck if you get something more from a competitor, there is more than enough to go around.

Last comment, I am on all these incubator mailing lists and I almost never go too deeply into the details. It seems to me that most of them have such complicated rules that you have to trade in a straight jacket. My philosophy is to provide maximum freedom within an acceptable risk reward framework.

Excuse the lengthy post.
Mike
I think not charging an eval fee is a definite plus for ditto.com since it counters the accusation that prop firms basically feed off losing traders.

Having said that, I agree that the 20% performance fee is something of a disincentive (if compared to say, tentoptraders.com who also charges no fee but offers a 50% profit-share; or those who do charge but with pay-outs of as high as 80% or even more).

I am hopeful that a real win/win proposition emerges from this exchange so ditto.com achieves its ambition of becoming a successful hedge fund while having happy, profitable traders in its stable.
Amor Fati--F. Nietzsche
Quoting doji
I think not charging an eval fee is a definite plus for ditto.com since it counters the accusation that prop firms basically feed off losing traders. Having said that, I agree that the 20% performance fee is something of a disincentive (if compared to say, tentoptraders.com who also charges no fee but offers a 50% profit-share; or those who do charge but with pay-outs of as high as 80% or even more). I am hopeful that a real win/win proposition emerges from this exchange so ditto.com achieves its ambition of becoming a successful hedge fund while...
Provided the trader is prepared to allocate a relatively lengthy time horizon to meet conditions.

For me, if the performance fee is relatively low then it has to be mated to a relatively high AUM.

In any case, I look forward to researching this firm much deeper.

Masterrmind ........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
An issue which happened with MFF , I would like to highlight here.

I had an evaluation 100 k account with them and was running smoothly.

Last Friday, I had open trades 6.5 lots in GBPUSD.

I opened long trades around 1.3375 ( Average price ).

Until Monday tokyo open, the mt4 was running smoothly and all my long trades were in nice profit.

Suddenly mt4 stopped working.

I sent emails and had chat session with 2 guys.

One lady in chat said she saw my dashboard and were running in good profit.

Later she said she sent a report to concerned team.

Now....

The old evaluation account, which i was not able access had huge floating profit, more than 9000 usd ( by calculation ). And last day of 30 day evaluation period ends on 4th February.

MFF seems to have migrated to new server so they gave me a new mt4 login with 100k yesterday.

Remember, my old evaluation 100 k account had 103250 ( including floating profits ).

I said ok, it is fine I will trade with new mt4 login as they seem to have migrated to new server. But I suggested to them, the 3250 dollar floating profit which I earned in old evaluation account to be credited to new mt4 account.

They refused.

Is this happened to anyone here ?

I highly doubt if MFF doing right thing here.

My old evaluation account never got violated loss limits and had 9250 dollar floating profit.

If any MFF representative here in this thread, I would like them to evaluate properly and take decision.

Emails and chat service is not much of use.
Intraday only.
Quoting ditto.trade
Thanks so much Mastermind and Fagin really appreciate it. I think the monthly payout is a good one and was something I used to get asked about a lot. As a long time trader, I am 50yrs old been trading since age 13 so that is 37yrs of experience 20+ as a fulltime trader. I have seen so many traders come and go and not make a long term living from this incredible occupation. Here is my advice and it may not appeal to most of the people reading this. It is very rare to be able to make a sustainable living eating what you kill from performance fees...
Thinking about this further I think a 6 month or 130 day trading period is a sensible approach, if you were to shorten this then you may find yourself awash with the EA cowboys I've seen with other companies who just end up swamping the support department and then want compensation or troll you, not good.
A trader taking this up also has to commit a decent chunk of time which will be his/her investment to show up and trade initially for nothing. Seems reasonable if it's a fair shot long term.

Speaking about track records, in the past I have ended up losing mine because it belonged to the people I traded for, call it naivety on my behalf but when I left I just had my own google sheets which are about as much use as a chocolate kettle. Would you produce a report that the trader can keep a hard copy and be allowed to use it if he/she left later on without legal bollocks?

You are correct in your comments about the other companies, however their model relies (i think) almost exclusively on fees from failed traders which is a concern for those of us who view this as a long term opportunity to trade for them. Even if you have 11 months profit and you drop a month you have to start again. How sustainable this is I don't know but there currently seems to be a never ending supply having a go... although eventually they may price themselves out of business if they don't manage the" live" side of the market well, i.e. profitible traders and continue the race to the bottom chasing fees.

I run an MFF Rapid Account alongside others and it's the one account that just chugs away with no drama, probably make about 20% PA. The payout level and scaling model is lacking any inspiration though..

The Rapid is probably the nearest offering to yours, so maybe worth a look for your research if you haven't already.

If you ever introduce a fee you will always be viewed with some suspicion.... so for now I think we are all listening to what you have to say. Interested.
Quoting ditto.trade
Been giving some more thought to the Demo accounts capital accelerator, sorry for hijacking the thread but I am learning what the community we want to serve thinks is fair and reasonable. {image} I need to think about the finer details, but I think this is a potentially very interesting opportunity for a trader who doesn't have access to surplus cash but believes they are a good trader. In this example where we provide the trader with a $10k demo account they can essentially fold that 10k plus the profits made up to a total of $20k into The Hub...
If you can match tentoptraders with a 50% performance pay-out, then I'm all in. If not. No way. 20% is not worth the bother.
tentoptraders offer the following. Which is quite generous considering they have no charges. OK you gotta be better than the average bear in the woods. But free is free.

  1. Enjoy 50% profit share.
  2. Scale up to $300k
  3. Exceptional traders are offered additional accounts with 60% profit share.
  4. Exceptional traders may consider our initial account offerings as stepping stones to 100k and 200k starting accounts.

Look Left Trade Right
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} ( ah, someone mentioned IP. re:copy, would love to know that it is like a PAMM and open trades not shown, or all visible, and someone can easily knock off, rougue copy from their MT4 with an investor password login to a larger acct with no payment. could it happen? hint: could.) Mike, if you want a real conversation, you can always skype me typing takes a lots of time, some editing, and probably in the end still not touching much of the parts of the topic. if anything, i would hope Ditto slips into the gap between the darwinex/axiselect...
Zoltan you have provided excellent feedback here and a Skype call is definitely in order I will arrange.
On the copy trading side of things, investors will not have access to the live trades of the Pro they are "ditto'ing" did I just say that (cringe).

On the incubation side of things nothing is yet cast in stone so I am open to explore.

On the Pro side of things I am committed to setting the bar high for various reasons, one of the main ones is that these types do not have the blow up profile of retail traders, yes their performance might not be as good but its more predictable and when you are risking your own capital and clients you want them to do well and not run the risk of blow up too common when you dont have huge skin in the game.

By the way Zoltan you were doing a good job convincing me it was a bad idea to offer the demo entry.

Let me think about this some more, as I would like to tap into a space where there is a gap and its still win win.
Quoting doji
I think not charging an eval fee is a definite plus for ditto.com since it counters the accusation that prop firms basically feed off losing traders. Having said that, I agree that the 20% performance fee is something of a disincentive (if compared to say, tentoptraders.com who also charges no fee but offers a 50% profit-share; or those who do charge but with pay-outs of as high as 80% or even more). I am hopeful that a real win/win proposition emerges from this exchange so ditto.com achieves its ambition of becoming a successful hedge fund while...
thanks doji

I was hoping that no entry fee, just time and talent would be a drawcard. its https://ditto.trade without the .com
I will never trade with ditto.trade. Sometimes, the way that people treat you matters more than money. Fortunately for me, I would rather pay 1K that I know that I will get back, just so that I can start getting paid much sooner. Good luck.
Quoting Fagin
{quote} Would you produce a report that the trader can keep a hard copy and be allowed to use it if he/she left later on without legal bollocks?
Yes for sure we could do something like this, at my previous company we created a PDF one pager report. This is definitely something we could do. Quite alarming is how few people can produce a daily time series of returns. I know a bunch of operators who run these kind of reports as a business. I suspect we could do this very easily at ditto. I will need to workshop it to make sure its useful.

Quote
If you ever introduce a fee you will always be viewed with some suspicion.... so for now I think we are all listening to what you have to say. Interested.

I am totally allergic to the idea of charging fees as our business model. As a broker our business earns commissions that is enough. I haven't done all that much research on the competitors I tend to focus on what I think works, which sounds a little arrogant so I will do a little more research on MFF and a few others mentioned.
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