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Abe16 Jun 3, 2019 11:00am | Post# 1

Abe's Median Line Thread
 
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Thread Rules:
1. Always post a chart or charts with your post
2. No PDFs (see commentary below)
3. No commercial plugs

INTRO
I've been using Median Lines as my primary tool to trade for several years. This statement must be qualified by also saying that Median Lines in and of themselves should not be used to initiate trades. Median Lines are based in a deeper paradigm that is really more about the swinging of price. In many respects using Median Lines is swing trading. To use Median Lines effectively one really needs a firm grounding in price action rather than indicators. I hope to clarify Median Line trading and for most I think it will be much different than what they have been taught by themselves or by others.

PDFs
Sadly some good work done by Andrews and Tim Morge and probably others has been pirated, altered and repackaged and either sold or less offensively distributed in PDFs without their permission. I support looking up Andrew's and Morges' material from their original source but I do not support the distribution of PDFs floating around out there, some of which have ended up in my thread. I would ask that anyone posting here please refrain from posting any PDFs. I am familiar with pretty much all material related to Median Lines or Andrew's Pitchforks and it is doubtful anyone can find anything I haven't already seen. Besides I'm here to show you what I've learned and how I use it to trade.

MY GOAL
The work I do in this thread I have in fact learned from reputable individuals that I paid to learn from. I intend to present what I have learned from these individuals in my own words but I am not going to copy and paste what I have learned. I will present real world trading examples of which a large part will be live.

INVITATION
Anyone interested in learning how to use Median lines is welcome to post here. I ask that you try to include a chart or charts so that I can fully understand. If you are already using median lines successfully and doing so in a different manner than what I present please contribute but again please post your charts to support your post.

I will point out what I believe are erroneous assumptions and quite honestly improper usage of median lines that really lead to some abandoning their usage because they think they don't work. The problem is not that they don't work but rather how some are being taught to use them or how they are assuming they should be used.

One thing is for sure...using median lines cannot be systematized in a profitable manner.

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Abe16 Jun 3, 2019 11:15am | Post# 2

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A TYPICAL MEDIAN LINE

AND

ANDREWS 80% PROBABILITY RULE


This is a typical median line that most are probably familiar with. It has A, B and C pivots and the pivots alternate low, high, low. Pivots must always alternate, either LHL or HLH. It would be incorrect to draw a median line with pivots HHL, LLH.

This particular median line highlights very nicely one of Andrew's rules: Price will reach the median line about 80% of the time. This is powerful and using this principle of median lines can be a beginning foundation for anyone wanting to use median lines.

In this example it can be seen that after price formed pivot C it ascended to the median line.


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Abe16 Jun 3, 2019 11:28am | Post# 3

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INCOMPLETE MEDIAN LINE

AND

CONSISTENCY



Price will often not reach the median line as in this example. Although systematizing median lines is an exercise in futility we can be consistent about using them. Even in this case if we had at some point bought the uptrend from pivot C we more than likely would have been able to minimize losses or exited break even. Make no mistake median lines are not a panacea. There will be losses. It is how one uses money management with any trading method that determines profitability. We'll be talking about money management and R:R.
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Abe16 Jun 3, 2019 5:39pm | Post# 4

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THE FALLACY OF FREQUENCY



This is an example of how not to use median lines. In this chart you can see that price has been bouncing off of the upper median line. This is called "frequency" by those who use median lines in this way. They suggest that once frequency has been demonstrated that one can use that line to trade. And I'm the first to admit it looks tempting but in practice it is nothing more than using the median lines as diagonal support/resistance and as such has nothing to do with how median lines work. If you are using median lines in this fashion and doing well then great! But just know you aren't really trading median lines but rather a trend line.

In the next post I'll give some fundamentals on what median lines are really supposed to do.
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Abe16 Jun 3, 2019 6:13pm | Post# 5

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PRICE PROJECTIONS


Median lines are drawn from 3 points (A, B, C) as discussed earlier. The only thing the median line does from that point is describe a relationship between those 3 points.

One way to describe that relationship is via PRICE PROJECTIONS.

Once we have A, B and C we can begin to project price based on the relationship betrween A, B and C.

1. The most basic projection that we learned earlier is that the trend from A to B has an 80% probability of projecting C to
D.
2. Once price satisfies D (reaches the median line) we can make other projections based on how price behaves at or
around the median line.
a. In this case price eventually zooms through the median line. When this happens we can project that price may
continue on to the upper median line.
b. However if price shows rejection at or around the median line then we might project that price may continue back to
the lower median line.
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Abe16 Jun 3, 2019 6:27pm | Post# 6

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Here's a live USDCAD 20 minute chart. If you want to follow along but don't have a 20 min option then just use a 15 min or even a 30 minute. Although I've labeled the bottom potential pivot as C it is not yet really a pivot. I'm just putting this up there to follow and see what happens. If pivot C becomes a reality then there is a chance to buy up to the median line.
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Abe16 Jun 3, 2019 6:35pm | Post# 7

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EURUSD 20 min.
This is a good example of price satisfying the projection of AB = CD. Price has zoomed the median line so we can project that price might continue to the upper median line. The question is where would one buy in to do that? For now let's just watch and see how price unfolds.
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tzamo Jun 3, 2019 8:36pm | Post# 8

INCOMPLETE MEDIAN LINE AND CONSISTENCY Price will often not reach the median line as in this example. Although systematizing median lines is an exercise in futility we can be consistent about using them. Even in this case if we had at some point bought the uptrend from pivot C we more than likely would have been able to minimize losses or exited break even. Make no mistake median lines are not a panacea. There will be losses. It is how one uses money management with any trading method that determines profitability. We'll be talking about money management...
Dear Abe16,

Thank you very much for starting this thread. I am curious about drawing the median lines, point C to be clear.
When do you consider point C as the final HL or LH?
Also, can you use them in the middle of trends eg. HH, HL, -Starting there> HH, HL, HH (so not the highest/ lowest points, but clear swings within a move)?
Is it still valid if point C extends further then point A?

edit:
Oh, I can see that you can use them in the middle of swings, like in the USD/CAD example above. There is a much lower Point A, during 21 May. The first Andrew's pitchfork from it never hit the median, but when moved to new points as price made them, it did. I wonder how much hindsight bias affects the back-testing of getting the 80% probability rule. I am inexperienced with median lines, but drawing 12 possible Andrew's pitchforks on EUR/USD from March to now I found 50% only hit the median line. Although, not a large enough sample size to confirm or fault the 80% probability rule.

Could you please define a set of steps or rules on how you think the median lines should be drawn, including what invalidates them (price moving past point A?).

Best Regards,
Tzamo

clemmo17 Jun 3, 2019 11:30pm | Post# 9

Does this have any relationship to Andrews' pitchfork?

amundo Jun 4, 2019 1:55am | Post# 10

Does this have any relationship to Andrews' pitchfork?
I hope Abe doesn't mind me jumping in here, but yes, the Andrews pitchfork is derived from Andrews' median line work.

Abe16 Jun 4, 2019 7:42am | Post# 11

{quote} Dear Abe16, Thank you very much for starting this thread. I am curious about drawing the median lines, point C to be clear. When do you consider point C as the final HL or LH? Also, can you use them in the middle of trends eg. HH, HL, -Starting there> HH, HL, HH (so not the highest/ lowest points, but clear swings within a move)? Is it still valid if point C extends further then point A? edit: Oh, I can see that you can use them in the middle of swings, like in the USD/CAD example above. There is a much lower Point A, during 21 May. The...
Hello Tzamo. Thanks for your interest. I hope you'll find median lines useful.

I'm going to be defining criteria for pivots whether C or otherwise. The criteria will be rule-based but it doesn't mean they can't be broken.

How one looks at a chart and how much data one is looking at on a chart will influence greatly how one defines all pivots and of course when one feels a C pivot has occurred.

Tim Morge has done extensive work on the probabilities of price reaching the median line and other probabilities having to do with median lines.

As this thread progresses it will become apparent how one can approach drawing median lines with purpose rather than randomly. It really has to do with swings.

Abe16 Jun 4, 2019 7:44am | Post# 12

Does this have any relationship to Andrews' pitchfork?
The term "pitchfork" was not used by Andrews. Andrews started off just drawing a median line without using upper and lower median lines. Later the upper and lower median lines were added. I've heard that he actually did not like this term but it has become common nomenclature. I prefer "median lines".

Abe16 Jun 4, 2019 8:07am | Post# 13

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USDJPY 20 min
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Zooming in. The median line defines the swings. A to B is the swing of interest. C to D is the anticipated swing. However C to D really doesn't offer a decent 3:1 trade so if a trade were to occur here one would likely need to anticipate that price would proceed through the median line and proceed to the upper median line as a target.

The green horizontal lines are drawn on the bearish portion of a bearish wrb outside bar that led to a LL. Price came back and took out this bar and then made a relative new high compared to the last small swing (see blue lines). When this happened pivot C became apparent to me.

For now watching.
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Abe16 Jun 4, 2019 8:29am | Post# 14

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USDJPY 20 min For overall context {image} Zooming in. The median line defines the swings. A to B is the swing of interest. C to D is the anticipated swing. However C to D really doesn't offer a decent 3:1 trade so if a trade were to occur here one would likely need to anticipate that price would proceed through the median line and proceed to the upper median line as a target. The green horizontal lines are drawn on the bearish portion of a bearish wrb outside bar that led to a LL. Price came back and took out this bar and then made a relative new...
First I want to say that by posting my live trades I am not implying or suggesting that anyone should take the same trade. I will reveal my trades at my own discretion and do so to show that I'm not just a chartist but a trader.

Price has reached and gone through the median line and this suggests to me it may proceed to the upper median line. Using my R:R tool I've defined a minimum 3:1 trade and thus it is shown with limit entry, SL and target.
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Abe16 Jun 4, 2019 8:32pm | Post# 15

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PIVOTS


A little about pivots.

Pivots are areas where price has either turned form bearish to bullish or bullish to bearish. It can be seen on a bar level, swing level and larger structure levels.

When price is trending down or up we can say that price is on the left side of a potential pivot. At some point it will become obvious that price has turned and when it does it is then on the right side of the pivot. This can be obvious or not so obvious.

Although pivots often occur with specific and readily identifiable price action they also often occur without price action that is pleasing or satisfying to us. Therefore we can make all kinds of definitions, patterns and setups or what have you and we will never identify all the ways that pivots occur.

Pivots occur when price SWAPS from the left side to the right side.

If price is trending down we know that bearish price action is occurring. At some point we will see bullish price action that definitively takes out or SWAPS the bearish price action. The same is for a bullish trend that gets SWAPPED with bearish price action.

Below is a chart with a couple of SWAPS. Rather than give a blow-by-blow I'll let you study them. I encourage you to look at 100s of charts and observe with detail what happens when price SWAPS.

Make no mistake pivots are crucial when deciding to trade or not to trade and you will leave behind many trades because the pivot was not readily identifiable.

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Abe16 Jun 4, 2019 8:44pm | Post# 16

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Anyone care to say whether or not a pivot has been made here? If so why? If not why?
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Velikov Jun 5, 2019 10:57am | Post# 17

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Anyone care to say whether or not a pivot has been made here? If so why? If not why? {image}
if price zoom the blue box maybe
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Abe16 Jun 7, 2019 8:45am | Post# 18

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{quote} First I want to say that by posting my live trades I am not implying or suggesting that anyone should take the same trade. I will reveal my trades at my own discretion and do so to show that I'm not just a chartist but a trader. Price has reached and gone through the median line and this suggests to me it may proceed to the upper median line. Using my R:R tool I've defined a minimum 3:1 trade and thus it is shown with limit entry, SL and target. {image}
This structure is a "V". They occur regularly and should be taken seriously but they don't necessarily signal a trade in one direction or the other. What happens after it's formation is what's important.
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The modified schiff median line is often an excellent tool to use when these occur. Modified schiffs are similar to standard median lines in that they still project price. So here A-B still projects C-D as shown. We can see that C-D is quite steep and although price can and does move this quickly sometimes it takes more time as it did here. So we can become interested when price reaches the lower median line. Therefore modified schiffs tend to act as channels. Therefore we usually do not use the center median line but rather the opposite or outside line after C forms.
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Even though price didn't immediately move to D we can get interested when price approaches the lower median line. Structure to the left may provide clues and the pink arrows are meant to show price action that suggests buyers are lurking in this area.
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Abe16 Jun 8, 2019 2:58pm | Post# 19

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This is the current EURUSD Weekly chart. Just to show that median line principles apply across all time frames.
The swing from A to B projects a possible move in price from C to D. This move is in line with the current uptrend on this weekly chart. The brown rectangle depicts an area of prior sellers that has been taken out. The pink arrows show price action that supports the idea that there were sellers here and that buyers stepped in. Price is now testing this area and on Friday there was a bullish WRB signifying that buyers are here. Price is testing a bearish tail or pinbar. If price takes this tail out things will be interesting. The red lines just show the largest swing in the smaller downtrend.
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jack-fx Jun 10, 2019 6:44pm | Post# 20

Hello Abe, thank you for this thread. I find the subject really interesting. I knew the system of the median lines, but never took it into serious study. I 'feel' that market really moves according to inner dynamic forces. Of course it recalls me harmonic trading. But it implies so many figures, which require a long backtesting to select.
I find this is much simpler. Also, it offers a not less important aspect, which is a great R:R.
This allows us -probably- to recover the frequent failures (I'm currently testing it).
What I also appreciate is the channel formed in correspondance of the "V" formations.
So, thank again, and keep on posting.

Abe16 Jun 10, 2019 7:50pm | Post# 21

Hello Abe, thank you for this thread. I find the subject really interesting. I knew the system of the median lines, but never took it into serious study. I 'feel' that market really moves according to inner dynamic forces. Of course it recalls me harmonic trading. But it implies so many figures, which require a long backtesting to select. I find this is much simpler. Also, it offers a not less important aspect, which is a great R:R. This allows us -probably- to recover the frequent failures (I'm currently testing it). What I also appreciate is the...
Good to have you Jack. One thing about median lines...they are not a system as many believe or erroneously assume. No back-testing needed since using median lines is a discretionary method relying purely on market dynamics. There are familiar patterns but they should never be systematized.

Abe16 Jun 10, 2019 8:17pm | Post# 22

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EURJPY 20 min chart
Nothing special here. Looking for a trip to the red median line. Price currently testing buyers up here. We'll see.
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parisboy Jun 11, 2019 2:58am | Post# 23

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If this can help somebody here :
Mikula , Patrick - The Best Trendline Methods of Alan Andrews and 5 New Trendline Methods.pdf
Median Line study- Greg Fisher.pdf
Median Line research Greg Fisher.pdf

Abe16 Jun 11, 2019 8:24am | Post# 24

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EURJPY 20 min chart Nothing special here. Looking for a trip to the red median line. Price currently testing buyers up here. We'll see. {image}
Current EURJPY 20 min chart.
Price respected buyers and has continued to move up. I've adjusted the median lines to reflect. Price may continue to move up and if so I'll keep adjusting the median lines to follow price.
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Abe16 Jun 12, 2019 7:10am | Post# 25

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{quote} Current EURJPY 20 min chart. Price respected buyers and has continued to move up. I've adjusted the median lines to reflect. Price may continue to move up and if so I'll keep adjusting the median lines to follow price. {image}
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Abe16 Jun 12, 2019 7:34pm | Post# 26

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Abe16 Jun 13, 2019 7:06am | Post# 27

{quote} {image}
Closed it

jack-fx Jun 13, 2019 5:42pm | Post# 28

{quote} Current EURJPY 20 min chart. Price respected buyers and has continued to move up. I've adjusted the median lines to reflect. Price may continue to move up and if so I'll keep adjusting the median lines to follow price. {image}
Hi Abe, yes: this is the main 'problem' with median lines. I got stopped more and more times.
How can we face this common aspect? Re-enter again and again?
What if price takes the trend and doesn't retrace?
Do you suggest an alternative money management (say... fractional entries, martingale)?

Abe16 Jun 13, 2019 7:26pm | Post# 29

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{quote} Hi Abe, yes: this is the main 'problem' with median lines. I got stopped more and more times. How can we face this common aspect? Re-enter again and again? What if price takes the trend and doesn't retrace? Do you suggest an alternative money management (say... fractional entries, martingale)?
At the expense of sounding like I'm lecturing(which I'm not) getting stopped out is a reality of trading and it happens frequently no matter what you're trading method. I have a <50% win rate and probably my actual win rate is closer to 40%. But I'm OK with that because I don't take any trade less than a R:R of 3:1. Many of my trades go >3:1 so I can get away with a low win rate. Many traders focus on win rate rather than R:R and accept very low R:R trades and wonder why their account dwindles. But let's get to this particular trade.

I like the fact that Median lines have a 80% probability of reaching the median line. This doesn't mean that I just willy-nilly draw median lines. I look at swings and choose major swings. Some are with trend and some against. In this particular case one might say it was against the trend on this 20 min time frame. In this case I was anticipating that price might retrace after making a new high. Using median lines there is a good chance price may "retrace" back to the median line. So again in this case the R:R was 3:1 at the point of entry.
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In attempt to limit "stop-outs" I do look for confirmation. Confirmation comes with understanding price action and this is where many get tripped up. I haven't spoke alot on price action but perhaps I will in the near future. In this instance at the "C" pivot a huge WRB formed that closes <50% and has the characteristic of a "pinbar" or "tail". A light blue arrow highlights this. Some value this single bar as a signal to trade. I do not. This is followed by price coming down and a WRB gap forms designated by the purple arrow. Notice that this gap takes out a small swing with a small "tail" at the bottom of the small swing and shown by the pink arrow. This represents a "reversal of effort" or in this case a reversal of bullish effort or what some might call a "swap" (a swap from bullish PA to bearish PA). I also have some green horizontal lines drawn from this "tail". Price falls a bit then comes back to test the area between the green lines where sellers previously decided to take it down. My entry is shown by the red down arrow.

I know this sounds complicated but once you get in tune with PA it kind of become second nature. Yes stop-outs will occur but my trades are always with full knowledge of what I'm doing and what I want to accomplish. In this case a trip to the median line.
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Fractional entries and martingale are not part of my trading strategy. Only careful anlaysis then full commitment to the trade win or lose. I will consider moving my stop once price gets close to target but otherwise I essentially write the check for the trade.

Abe16 Jun 13, 2019 7:50pm | Post# 30

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EURJPY 20 min current chart

Price reached the median line and so far has not decisively breached it. I've drawn a pink median line but the "C" pivot is really still questionable as price action has not confirmed it.
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auxesis Jun 14, 2019 7:53pm | Post# 31

Very nice discussion on Median lines. Its good to see someone take the time to show the mental thought process in determining if c is valid and proper trade management.

cudos,

Abe16 Jun 17, 2019 3:06pm | Post# 32

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kicktothehea Jun 17, 2019 5:41pm | Post# 33

Thank you for sharing this Abe.
I actually just joined FF so I could subscribe to your thread instead of being a long time lurker

I also use Median Lines - and I also use them based on 2 of Andrews main rules -
Price will reach the median line 80% of the time (which logically when I discovered median lines last year it made complete sense for targets)
If price zooms through the median line it will re-visit (re-test) - which again logically helps when price rips through the ML into a support zone its a nice fade back to the ML trade

I have digested almost every PDF/You Tube video out there and "for me" the ML's just make complete logical sense for targets when entering a trade.

Abe16 Jun 17, 2019 6:41pm | Post# 34

Thank you for sharing this Abe. I actually just joined FF so I could subscribe to your thread instead of being a long time lurker I also use Median Lines - and I also use them based on 2 of Andrews main rules - Price will reach the median line 80% of the time (which logically when I discovered median lines last year it made complete sense for targets) If price zooms through the median line it will re-visit (re-test) - which again logically helps when price rips through the ML into a support zone its a nice fade back to the ML trade ...
Awesome! Looking forward to your charts!

Abe16 Jun 18, 2019 7:02am | Post# 35

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Abe16 Jun 24, 2019 11:26pm | Post# 36

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Abe16 Jun 28, 2019 9:34pm | Post# 37

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The "lines" don't signal trades and so some will say "why use them in the first place"? Such a question only reveals a gross misunderstanding of median lines and what they do. Anyway here is one of Andrew's rules and how it could have been used in a recent EURJPY 20 min chart.

When prices reverse before reaching the ML, leaving a "space", they will move more in the opposite direction than when prices were rising toward the ML.

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Fxent Jun 28, 2019 11:23pm | Post# 38

The "lines" don't signal trades and so some will say "why use them in the first place"? Such a question only reveals a gross misunderstanding of median lines and what they do. Anyway here is one of Andrew's rules and how it could have been used in a recent EURJPY 20 min chart. When prices reverse before reaching the ML, leaving a "space", they will move more in the opposite direction than when prices were rising toward the ML. {image}
Hi

Its like simmilar auto trendlines ?

Abe16 Jun 29, 2019 1:09pm | Post# 39

{quote} Hi Its like simmilar auto trendlines ?
Not really my friend. At it's most basic median lines describe a price relationship between 3 points of reference. They neither necessarily adhere to or go against a "trend".

You use the word "auto" implying median lines are drawn by the platform or an indicator. This is a mistake since such an indicator will have many limitations.

Abe16 Jun 29, 2019 2:29pm | Post# 40

Learning to trade is difficult especially with all the BS that is constantly being put out there.

While this is a thread about median lines I don't pretend to suggest that median lines are magical. In fact if you don't understand how price tends to move then the value of median lines will allude you.

Trading requires a basic understanding of how price moves, not how indicators move. Developing a set of trading rules prior to such understanding is futile.

Price moves on a bar/candle level a minor structure level and a major structure level.
Bar/Candle = minor = major (one can see the similarity on different time frames).

The vast majority of price movement occurs within swings or waves and median lines are very well suited to describing swings.

So far in this thread I've sought to present real examples, some of which have been live, of how median lines can help with one's trading. The charts I've shown often show potential or actual entries. Additionally I've often described the price action that directly led to the trade. Some have failed and some have succeeded.

I know there are a some other median line or action/reaction threads here on FF but I don't see any of them providing meaningful instruction or examples of live or demo trades. And I don't see how profound quotes are going to help you with entries, exits and stop losses.

I actually want to help you. Certainly one needs to study, look at historical charts and think but I'm not going to just leave it at that. I will continue to provide precise charts with details of trade entry, target and stop loss. Although I will post historical charts I will also post live charts with either ongoing trades or anticipated trades.


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