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Robot Trader May 14, 2019 11:23pm | Post# 1561

{quote} @pet3250 -- it looks like there are other targets, so it will be interesting to see how this goes. Since 'momentum' kept coming up in discussions, I am now incorporating it in my charts. Though I can now see targets (on both sides of the current price) I am still unsure which direction to go. Perhaps including momentum as a filter will help.
If these gaps ALWAYS get filled why not open a Buy and Sell, you will it the target with one of them and just add another position to the losing trade and let it go and find that gap.

Obviously this will only work IF gaps ALWAYS get taken out.

robots4me May 14, 2019 11:40pm | Post# 1562

{quote} If these gaps ALWAYS get filled why not open a Buy and Sell, you will it the target with one of them and just add another position to the losing trade and let it go and find that gap. Obviously this will only work IF gaps ALWAYS get taken out.
@Robot Trader -- hedging always confuses me. How / when do you know which will be the losing trade? I would love to see how this could work -- could you provide a screen shot with an explanation.

This is all relatively new to me -- but it is my understanding that liquidity gaps (as opposed to price gaps) get filled a very high percent of the time. Plus, you can visually see this when scrolling back in history.

pet3250 May 14, 2019 11:45pm | Post# 1563

{quote} @pet3250 -- it looks like there are other targets, so it will be interesting to see how this goes. Since 'momentum' kept coming up in discussions, I am now incorporating it in my charts. Though I can now see targets (on both sides of the current price) I am still unsure which direction to go. Perhaps including momentum as a filter will help.
I will post the chart at the end of every day just to see where it goes. very interesting discussion going on here.
As soon as I started trading which was 2 years ago, I wanted to understand where the targets were and thats the most important thing here, trying to understand where and when the MM make a move and trying to piggy back on to that move.

shrips May 14, 2019 11:47pm | Post# 1564

Throughout this great journey started by George and following on with this thread, has anyone managed to put all the pieces together into a solid tradable strategy? Would anyone like to share their system if they having something to share?

very valid question....

robots4me May 15, 2019 1:28am | Post# 1565

{quote} very valid question....
@shrips -- sorry, no it's not.

You and @matthew89 are the kind of lazy traders that cause some of us to grow cynical. You expect others to do the heavy lifting, and then ask them to share it with you. If someone wants to share that's up to them -- there's no need to ask -- especially since you haven't contributed anything to help them.

I'm cynical and not very generous. But if you had been paying attention, you'd have noticed someone among us who is (very generous). That is -- @Nih98 -- and he has a beautiful thread. If you can't bring yourself to search for the link yourself, ask someone else to do that work for you, as well.

Robot Trader May 15, 2019 3:33am | Post# 1566

{quote} @Robot Trader -- hedging always confuses me. How / when do you know which will be the losing trade? I would love to see how this could work -- could you provide a screen shot with an explanation. This is all relatively new to me -- but it is my understanding that liquidity gaps (as opposed to price gaps) get filled a very high percent of the time. Plus, you can visually see this when scrolling back in history.
Sorry been taking the dogs for a walk on the beach

My point is if these gaps always get filled and PA is say 50/50% (and that equals 100 pips between each gap target) from each target gap you open a Buy/Sell and lets say the Buy reaches the gap target and you close with a 50 pips profit. Your Sell trade is now 50 pips (plus spread) in DD, if there are no more Buy trade gaps to fill (new targets) above the one which you just profited from, then you add another Sell trade and let PA move Short to fill the other target gap, When this gap gets closed you have 2 Sell trades in profit Sell Trade 1 gives you 50 pips gain and Sell Trade 2 gives you 100 pips gain. Now you look at the charts and see where the next two Bullish and Bearish target gaps are located.

Again this only works if gaps always get filled at some point, if they do then providing your lot size is not too large you ride the DD until the market is ready to fill next gap.

But I still find it hard to believe that these gaps contain unfilled orders that just continue to sit there, if I had an unfilled order I would remove it and look for a better entry. I understand better SL's being targets for the Sharks, that makes sense because once that SL is hit their taking money from someones account by closing an open trade. However these gaps you refer to from what I understand are pending orders which have not been triggered for whatever reason, so they are not a live contract, thus can be removed by whoever placed them at anytime and also by the Sharks triggering them they are just making them a live contracts, which could Win/Lose, they do not directly fill the pockets of the Sharks, but they do start the process of filling the pockets of the Sharks once PA moves to take out the SL's of these newly opened contracts

handy148 May 15, 2019 3:58am | Post# 1567

Yes but how long does it take for the gap to fill!! It wouldn't surprise me if there are still gaps from decades ago.

robots4me May 15, 2019 4:08am | Post# 1568

{quote} Sorry been taking the dogs for a walk on the beach My point is if these gaps always get filled and PA is say 50/50% (and that equals 100 pips between each gap target) from each target gap you open a Buy/Sell and lets say the Buy reaches the gap target and you close with a 50 pips profit. Your Sell trade is now 50 pips (plus spread) in DD, if there are no more Buy trade gaps to fill (new targets) above the one which you just profited from, then you add another Sell trade and let PA move Short to fill the other target gap, When this...
@Robot Trader -- excellent response, I get it -- thank you. The hedging scenario you describe would also require a large SL (or no SL), in addition to riding out a potentially large DD until the second liquidity gap was filled. At this point I'm not so comfortable with that -- but now I understand how one would hedge this.

As for what percent of the time liquidity gaps get filled, from what I've been told and from what I can see by scanning historical charts, it 's very high. Let me leave it at that. I didn't even know what a liquidity gap was a couple of weeks ago.

As for whether they truly represent unfilled orders -- who knows for sure. If you don't accept that they get filled nearly 100% of the time, then the explanation falls apart. The explanation (liquidity gaps represent unfilled orders) only makes sense if you accept they almost always get filled.

I think that attributing evil intentions and calling them "Sharks" doesn't help and actually plays into their hand. It only serves as a distraction. Like waving a red flag in front of a bull, traders go charging in the wrong direction. You say that if you placed an order that wasn't immediately filled you shop elsewhere -- I don't think it's that simple or works that way. We're not shopping for appliances. The orders could be for millions or billions of dollars and the entity that placed the order may be perfectly willing to wait for the right price -- I don't know. The observation is liquidity gaps almost always get filled -- hence, they probably represent unfilled orders. If you don't accept they almost aways get filled then I would agree the explanation they represent unfilled orders would not necessarily follow.

This isn't my theory. This notion that liquidity gaps are important targets is something I / we learned from @George. And I've come around to the point that if @George suggests I should keep my eye on the bouncing ball, then I keep my eye on the bouncing ball. In my opinion, @George is one of the few who can "talk the talk and walk the walk".

One other thing -- it's not necessary to trade liquidity gaps. I mean, there are traders who make money using other approaches. But then you have to be careful to stay way from the sudden, unexpected spikes -- which isn't so easy. When you trade with target levels in mind, then the spikes are actually helpful since they serve as "landmarks". The spikes are where the MM shows its hand (and I credit @moodybot for explaining it that way).

rosalieone May 15, 2019 4:10am | Post# 1569

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Robots4me
Back on my computer ;-)
What i wanted to show yesterday is that if you consider filling a LG with a wick you risk losing a lot of info on the futur price move (and as i showed yesterday there is no vol in a wick so not real bite in the LG)
Hereunder 2 pictures of the same chart, one without wicks and one with.
The yellow boxes show were the LG lines should have continued if not taken out by the wicks. You can see clearly the reason of the following price action in 1,2,3 and 4
What do you think ? (i can find a lot more over and over again)
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robots4me May 15, 2019 4:13am | Post# 1570

Yes but how long does it take for the gap to fill!! It wouldn't surprise me if there are still gaps from decades ago.
@handy148 -- perhaps. But the entities placing the orders are not impatient humans waiting in line to order ice cream. Those unfilled orders could also be some type of long term investment. I don't know. You are thinking as a human who is used to being served right away -- I'm not sure it works that way at the MM level.

Husky77 May 15, 2019 4:32am | Post# 1571

Robots4me Back on my computer ;-) What i wanted to show yesterday is that if you consider filling a LG with a wick you risk losing a lot of info on the futur price move (and as i showed yesterday there is no vol in a wick so not real bite in the LG) Hereunder 2 pictures of the same chart, one without wicks and one with. The yellow boxes show were the LG lines should have continued if not taken out by the wicks. You can see clearly the reason of the following price action in 1,2,3 and 4 What do you think ? (i can find a lot more over and over again)...
when you say wicks you refer to the candle tails i guess. but i was wondering if we spot one M15 tail then when we go to M5 chart we may find full candles in that wick space of 5 minutes or even lower in M1... just saying. it is a wick yes but is data where price was at some point in time,so is ''done''.

rosalieone May 15, 2019 4:35am | Post# 1572

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{quote} when you say wicks you refer to the candle tails i guess. but i was wondering if we spot one M15 tail then when we go to M5 chart we may find full candles in that wick space of 5 minutes or even lower in M1... just saying. it is a wick yes but is data where price was at some point in time,so is ''done''.
Not done, look at the futur price action 1,2,3,and 4. The price movement is after something which is still there.
The wick/Tail stopped the LG lines but futur price action tells that the LG is still alive (sounds creepy...)
Thats why i show it without tails, we can better see it
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robots4me May 15, 2019 4:36am | Post# 1573

Robots4me Back on my computer ;-) What i wanted to show yesterday is that if you consider filling a LG with a wick you risk losing a lot of info on the futur price move (and as i showed yesterday there is no vol in a wick so not real bite in the LG) Hereunder 2 pictures of the same chart, one without wicks and one with. The yellow boxes show were the LG lines should have continued if not taken out by the wicks. You can see clearly the reason of the following price action in 1,2,3 and 4 What do you think ? (i can find a lot more over and over again)...
@rosalieone -- very nice -- I see your point now. I would need to think about this some more.

Let's suppose we do not use wicks to fill a liquidity gap and allow the gap to remain alive until it runs into a candle body -- as you suggest. But then I have the following problems:

1. I think we would need another explanation as to what is happening here.
2. Wicks are not real -- they are just ordinary ticks that happen to be at the right place at the right time. So, I don't know what it means to ignore wicks.
3. Could it be those future movements you refer to can be explained by other targets -- i.e. not necessarily liquidity gaps? Maybe there are TOPS and BOTTOMS target levels that are luring traders to those prices.

I'll tell you what -- this is interesting and I think I could add an option to ignore wicks without much trouble. And then we could have a better look at it. What do you think?

Robot Trader May 15, 2019 4:40am | Post# 1574

{quote} @Robot Trader -- excellent response, I get it -- thank you. The hedging scenario you describe would also require a large SL (or no SL), in addition to riding out a potentially large DD until the second liquidity gap was filled. At this point I'm not so comfortable with that -- but now I understand how one would hedge this. As for what percent of the time liquidity gaps get filled, from what I've been told and from what I can see by scanning historical charts, it 's very high. Let me leave it at that. I didn't even know what a liquidity gap...
OK if you can see them clearly on historical charts, then it should be possible with an EA or by hand to draw a Zig Zag line from any look back period to the present day showing these gaps getting taken out (PA moving up and down)

For me the further back the look back period the better, so lets say we go back 1 year and at the end of the exercise 90% (which would be a very good result) of the gaps that were on the chart are taken out. Then we look at the remaining 10% how would they have been traded, if we apply a formula to determine the best R:R to all gaps that are traded then this 10% of losing trades should not matter. From the historical Zig Zag pattern it should be possible to workout the best R:R to give each trade, giving it a percentage based upon a known historic travel distance between each Zig Zag gap point, e.g. the further it needs to travel between gaps the more breathing space the trade needs to reach its target.

Husky77 May 15, 2019 4:41am | Post# 1575

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{quote} Not done, look at the futur price action 1,2,3,and 4. The price movement is after something which is still there. The wick/Tail stopped the{image} LG lines but futur price action tells that the LG is still alive (sounds creepy...) Thats why i show it without tails, we can better see it
I 'm not talking about particular fast spikes ,just look on chart at some candle tails for example in H1/H4 ,then if you spot that tail price limited and go to M5 you can find closed candles 5 minutes or M1 in that space. so we can say price filled that space on chart even if in H1 show a wick but in lower TF's are full body candles.
example here in H4 we have one wick ,but looking lower in H1 we have 3 full candles
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robots4me May 15, 2019 4:46am | Post# 1576

{quote} OK if you can see them clearly on historical charts, then it should be possible with an EA or by hand to draw a Zig Zag line from any look back period to the present day showing these gaps getting taken out (PA moving up and down) For me the further back the look back period the better, so lets say we go back 1 year and at the end of the exercise 90% (which would be a very good result) of the gaps that were on the chart are taken out. Then we look at the remaining 10% how would they have been traded, if we apply a formula to determine the...
@Robot Trader -- thank you for volunteering

rosalieone May 15, 2019 4:50am | Post# 1577

{quote} @rosalieone -- very nice -- I see your point now. I would need to think about this some more. Let's suppose we do not use wicks to fill a liquidity gap and allow the gap to remain alive until it runs into a candle body -- as you suggest. But then I have the following problems: 1. I think we would need another explanation as to what is happening here. 2. Wicks are not real -- they are just ordinary ticks that happen to be at the right place at the right time. So, I don't know what it means to ignore wicks. 3. Could it be those future movements...
Would be nice !
Wicks are real and we have seen specific to the pip but without real Volume. I dont know the purpose of it, maybe a scout sent to see the size of the coming body.
The thing you said about other targets is really interesting i was wondering the same thing, since we now enjoy the LG notion there must be other hidden thing out there that we can use. I will lookafter

robots4me May 15, 2019 5:04am | Post# 1578

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{quote} Would be nice ! Wicks are real and we have seen specific to the pip but without real Volume. I dont know the purpose of it, maybe a scout sent to see the size of the coming body. The thing you said about other targets is really interesting i was wondering the same thing, since we now enjoy the LG notion there must be other hidden thing out there that we can use. I will lookafter
@rosalieone -- okay, you are now the world's expert on removing liquidity gaps

In the version I've attached below I've added a button to "toggle" with and without wicks:
MMLiquidityGaps.ex4

rosalieone May 15, 2019 5:08am | Post# 1579

{quote} @rosalieone -- okay, you are now the world's expert on removing liquidity gaps In the version I've attached below I've added a button to "toggle" with and without wicks: {file}
Christmas before time, thanks a lot !!!
I test it right away

robots4me May 15, 2019 5:20am | Post# 1580

{quote} Christmas before time, thanks a lot !!! I test it right away


BTW -- your comment about a tick serving as a "scout" is really interesting.

My time zone is calling me away. I'll check-in again tomorrow to see if you've learned anything new.


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