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-   -   Successful traders are very, very rare to find (https://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=718444)

NeilWagner Sep 24, 2019 11:32am | Post# 581

This guy made 70000% or something like that lol https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...1#post11882251 and he's just 23 years old. HOPEFULLY he made a withdrawal.
Maybe he is waiting to cross Bill Gates; afterwards the withdrawal; lolzz!

auricforecas Sep 24, 2019 3:47pm | Post# 582

This guy made 70000% or something like that lol https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...1#post11882251 and he's just 23 years old. HOPEFULLY he made a withdrawal.
Currently he doesn't have TE published so either does not want publicity (at some level everything reverses, you try to hide or he blew the account (most likely).
https://www.forexfactory.com/twfxtrader
But would like to hear from him or anyone else that knows him or was tracking him. Do share the info.

auricforecas Sep 24, 2019 3:50pm | Post# 583

1 Attachment(s)
Guys, don't want to do promotions but... One of my brokers has this promotion...
https://www.octafx.com/contests/supercharged/rating/

I have talked with their support a few times and they do claim the stats seems to be legit..
I mean just check it, some people claim to make 71000% returns... Do you think this is even possible.. for not so few people?
I mean I personally rolled the profit to few 1000% (in a row) so up until that I can confirm, but 70k%? What do you think?
Seems like a scam or some people know something... Am wondering If I would be better of just copying one of them..

Well broker seems somewhat legit Made live trades, deposits, withdrawals, no problem..
Just not sure about this stats!

For example.. https://www.octafx.com/contests/supe...ember/Darkman/
Not sure if the calculations are correct, talked to support about this but still...
They did remove some (after I contacted support some months back... that it is strange) that appeared to be calculated wrongly (100k% returns), but still many of those with insane profits.. it seems..
Any experiences? Or comments?
Click to Enlarge

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Size: 57 KB

Darkmidnight Sep 24, 2019 10:14pm | Post# 584

The market is a freakin beast. It does whatever it wants to do.
Up, down, wherever.
That's why you see traders lose more than win.
They don't know what the market does. They just follow.

pippoacher Sep 25, 2019 2:13am | Post# 585

{quote} " i Have been trying to recruit traders who can demonstrate a consistent 2 or 3 per cent per month profit with minimal draw down. Apparently this creature does not exist." Where does it say they included retail traders ? It's obvious they found no forex traders that met this seemingly simple criteria. The retail forex industry marketing machine is well aware of this type of damaging evidence. No need to spin it for damage control (:
We recruit exclusively out of the retail sector

pippoacher Sep 25, 2019 2:20am | Post# 586

{quote} that person lives in South Africa, a 3rd world developing country with dsl Internet. what makes you think there would be professionals trading out of South Africa, which you probably know nothing about. if he worked for a broker in S.A. it wouldn't be one that services clients in the US, UK, or EU under the same account management. not least because it would need to have separation of regulated accounts in those locations which doesn't exist in South Africa. Think before you write it will save you embarrassment. maybe you referring to this...
Take caution in your tone ignorant fool, when you have a point worthy of a response. we have custodial banking licences in UK, Australia and naturally South Africa,

Mingary Sep 25, 2019 2:34am | Post# 587

{quote} We recruit exclusively out of the retail sector
Thank you for weighing in on this discussion
If you could not find any "professional" retail forex traders that met your criteria, are there successful traders even ? and why did they not apply ?

pippoacher Sep 25, 2019 3:23am | Post# 588

{quote} Thank you for weighing in on this discussion If you could not find any "professional" retail forex traders that met your criteria, are there successful traders even ? and why did they not apply ?
Professional retail trader is a bit misleading. We did not recruit professional ( as in trading for an IB or hedge fund) for two reasons. Firstly because we are a STP broker we wanted to to show clients and potential clients that not all brokers are out to take risk against them, our business model relies on traders to be sustainable. This brings me to the second part of the reason.
In demonstrating that our platform offers a bona fide opportunity in generating profit, and that if they become sustainable they can basically secure a job, it generates a an edge over our competition.
We developed a mass distribution ecosystem whereby we can market the skill of our traders and raise capital with that skill and distribute it into a genuine alternative investment product.

Mingary Sep 25, 2019 4:02am | Post# 589

{quote} Professional retail trader is a bit misleading. We did not recruit professional ( as in trading for an IB or hedge fund) for two reasons. Firstly because we are a STP broker we wanted to to show clients and potential clients that not all brokers are out to take risk against them, our business model relies on traders to be sustainable. This brings me to the second part of the reason. In demonstrating that our platform offers a bona fide opportunity in generating profit, and that if they become sustainable they can basically secure a job,...
Thanks for the response.
Professional retail forex trader .. I meant someone who is a private individual (not working for a bank, hedge fund, broker) whose only source of income comes from retail forex trading.
My understanding is that even with your contacts in the UK, Australia and South Africa you were not able to find qualified candidates?

pippoacher Sep 25, 2019 4:20am | Post# 590

{quote} Thanks for the response. Professional retail forex trader .. I meant someone who is a private individual (not working for a bank, hedge fund, broker) whose only source of income comes from retail forex trading. My understanding is that even with your contacts in the UK, Australia and South Africa you were not able to find qualified candidates?
we have found a few talented individuals, 2 in fact from metals mine, and we have funded 3 traders with about $40 000 each. and they are plodding along nicely.

Offujimori Sep 26, 2019 1:12am | Post# 591

Guys, don't want to do promotions but... One of my brokers has this promotion... https://www.octafx.com/contests/supercharged/rating/ I have talked with their support a few times and they do claim the stats seems to be legit.. I mean just check it, some people claim to make 71000% returns... Do you think this is even possible.. for not so few people? I mean I personally rolled the profit to few 1000% (in a row) so up until that I can confirm, but 70k%? What do you think? Seems like a scam or some people know something... Am wondering...

It is possible! Market is a sandbox for smart people. And suffering for students.
We can't ignore that if 1% exists, then 1% is true!

auricforecas Sep 26, 2019 4:13pm | Post# 592

The thing is that, I guess what maybe some are trying to find here is...
Is the "successful trading" learnable skill?

Because if we are looking the whole statistics... Of course there are and will be some that made it... if it is slightly possible, there will be a few that do it..
But that is in retrospect, hindsight.. Of course if we interview the ones that were far on the extreme side of the let's say "gauss curve"... will be claiming all sorts of theories why it happened or why/how they knew...

I mean there are even many lottery winners after all, some of them in a row! Supposedly..

Here os example of extreme luck/skill, you be the judge.. Yeah PHD in Statistics (from Standford) would imply some super-knowledge...
But maybe it was just luck, although four times?
'Lucky' woman who won lottery four times outed as Stanford University statistics PhD
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...stics-PhD.html

What is also of interest to me how many successful traders (need to be defined what that is first) can you make?
Because if someone is just like intuitive trader similar to what "Srinivasa Ramanujan" was to math... (movie: The Man Who Knew Infinity (film) (2015)...
What use would it be for others? Some just seem to "have it".

I would be interested how many could you "make"... Meaning, if you had a class of 30-100... how many could be "successful".. and not just "statistical outliers"... but with good significance (in stat terms)...

Vorenzd Sep 26, 2019 4:43pm | Post# 593

Hard to find on a free internet forum where people who don't know anything about trading pretend to be best traders in the world? Ofcourse they are.

A real trader does not need to prove himself to a forum, a real trader remains low key and educates, learns, participates. Like many here do. If anyone is posting his "magical results" at the end of every day without ever explaining their trades - he's a scam...And that's what FF members are looking for, they are looking for quick bucks, they are looking for snake oil sales man who will show them a fake trade slip at the each of their day. They'll be happy because their "dream" will still be alive.

They will daydream about having these magical profits instead of focusing on the reality and focusing on learning how to trade. Focusing on understanding the market.

Begginers should read books and not daydream about fake trading slips.

I'm not surprised that you're unable to find successful retail forex traders, but that's not because of the markets - it's because of those traders. Most people don't want success as bad as they want to party, be cool, some even don't want success more then they want to sleep. So you've got people who think trading is the easy road and they get burned so fast.

Most trading accounts are under 2000$, what are we even talking about? Yeah, sure, you can start with any capital, and over a few years you can surely develop it, even months. But if you're trading with 100 leverage (lets say all your capital is invested), do you really think that's sustainable? Come on, that's just silly. Not even the best trader in the world could pull that off... disagree? Prove me wrong.

When trading small accounts people get frustrated with seemingly small profits and then they get lost in it. They alway say "Oh, what's 500$, i don't care if i lose it"... and then they lose it... 10 times in a row. You should care about every cent.

I've been in the markets for over 20 years now,worked in the industry for 17 years, after getting a masters degree in economics... I worked at a major bank as an analyst and at an investment firm as a trader... now trading on my own... and I can tell you one thing - It's always been the same - the ones who are serious about it succeed in the end, the ones who are not serious don't.

Most of the "trading industry" is based on marketing, most of these gurus make their money from selling low quality signals or courses. It's sad that most people don't see it, they are blinded by the forex dream.

So the question is:

Can you make millions trading? YES, YOU CAN, but you can also make millions playing tennis.

You need to have a "nose for the markets". It takes you a while to understand if you have the nose for the markets... actually it'd be better if an more experienced trader told you if you do... but yeah, he'd have to monitor you closely for a certain period. And if you do have that nose, then you need to "train hard". Success will come your way very soon if you do.

Most people are not qualified to trade forex. How many people here have any degree in economy, how many people have any degree in mathematics? How many have even graduated for college? And they expect to be forex billionaires in a year. Funny.

The thing that kills most retail traders is excessive leverage... excessive is everything above 10 for capital under 15k$... above anything higher then 5. (ofcourse if you have an account smaller then 2000$, you feel the need to use higher leverage - then you blow it.).

How many retail FX traders have a trading plan? How many UNDERSTAND the fundamentals and not just this techincal etc? Not many.

And then they try to sell this to newbies, and then everyone just loses money. But hey, for me, I see it as one big Liquidity farm, the big banks and market makers see it the same way.



---------------------------------

I'd just like to add a note that there are quite a few people on FF who I consider successful traders. And i can tell you right now, NONE of them are bragging about their results - because they don't have to. They know who they are. Their contribution to this forum is massive, but since it's not any "direct trades and fake slips" but rather education and information, it's often pushed aside and doesn't get the attention it deserves. Everyone wants magic trades.

Don't get me wrong, posting trades is not a bad thing, I've seen some guys do great work, posting trades ahead of taking them or when taking them(not 3 hours later...) ... most of those end as winning trades. Great stuff.

There are many successful traders - you're just looking for them in the wrong places.

So respect to all the real ones out there who are here trying to contribute and help the begginers learn to trade the right way.

I hope that no one gets offended by this post as it is a bit harsh... but I'd call it though love.

auricforecas Sep 26, 2019 4:53pm | Post# 594

Hard to find on a free internet forum where people who don't know anything about trading pretend to be best traders in the world? Ofcourse they are. A real trader does not need to prove himself to a forum, a real trader remains low key and educates, learns, participates. Like many here do. If anyone is posting his "magical results" at the end of every day without ever explaining their trades - he's a scam...And that's what FF members are looking for, they are looking for quick bucks, they are looking for snake oil sales man who will show them a...
Now imagine finding out that some of the gurus got it wrong far more than the coin-flip "strategy". And even if they give wrong predictions/signals mostly (or just put every option out there so they are always right)... some even post failing TEs (that they sneakily switch/ditch but might leave the same name).. people still don't care and keep coming/following in droves... What are they here for really? Sure as hell not for profits... if you ask me. My guess would be either coming to (don't want to say or just have some leader/daddy in life... But I might be wrong and some know how to convert the - to +... It's funny, one guy was explaining that the posted negative TE is just a "joke" and that in his real account (unshared of course).. he makes trades (within/parallel trades) positive People doesn't seem to care what is inside, once you got the momentum... Heard the expression "famous for being famous"? It is not the markets, not FX.. But just the state of game we are in, in greater picture, society... Markets are just some small reflection of it But all being said... Why not have people have dream... Can you imagine if people would count with hard reality? Most of the people have some sort of "reality coping" mechanism... I do like your post tough

Vorenzd Sep 26, 2019 5:06pm | Post# 595

{quote} Now imagine finding out that some of the gurus got it wrong far more than the coin-flip "strategy". And even if they give wrong predictions/signals mostly (or just put every option out there so they are always right)... some even post failing TEs (that they sneakily switch/ditch but might leave the same name).. people still don't care and keep coming/following in droves... What are they here for really? Sure as hell not for profits... if you ask me. My guess would be either coming to (don't want to say or just have some leader/daddy...
Yeah man, you definetly have some good points. I'm glad you like my post.

It's never about TE or results, someone can have 1000000000% return, but that shouldn't matter to anyone if they can't share their knowledge... I've never been a "lets follow Kim Kardashian( or any famous person)" kind of guy.. it's always been silly to me... silly to dream of someone elses life and follow it when i can be improving my own with all that energy.

You are right... it is not just FX or the market, I guess that most people in trading (and our society) prefer to live in their own "safe bubble" and ignore reality for as long as they can.

Dreaming is good, but if you get carried away in your dream, then you might never achieve it. Imagine if everyone used half of the energy they use for dreaming for inovating? Daydreaming is good, but it is better when it is not too far fetched.

I dream too, every day, about huge things... but I'm able to separate the realistic dreams from the unrealistic ones. I think it is dangerous when a human starts believing an unrealistic dream is realistic... it can ruin him when he finds out he was "dreaming a lie", don't you think?

That expression ("Famous for being famous") reflects very well to our society and the markets. Thank you for sharing your opinion with me.. it's interesting to see your view of the human mind and reality coping mechanisms .

auricforecas Sep 26, 2019 5:12pm | Post# 596

{quote} Yeah man, you definetly have some good points. I'm glad you like my post. It's never about TE or results, someone can have 1000000000% return, but that shouldn't matter to anyone if they can't share their knowledge... I've never been a "lets follow Kim Kardashian( or any famous person)" kind of guy.. it's always been silly to me... silly to dream of someone elses life and follow it when i can be improving my own with all that energy. You are right... it is not just FX or the market, I guess that most people in trading (and our society)...
Was just editing the previous post, but now will add to this reply Also... Yeah, some losing TEs are GOLD, not many seem to realise this... I breakdown trades or TEs to components (if it a trader/TE/post comes to my attention), to search if there is anything useful.. The overall result is maybe the least representable, specially if one looks only the returns (and even DD)...
BTW this is how I got started.. almost gave up in the beginning when someone said.. like "wait a minute, adjust this parameter"... and I made some profit finally...
Some are good at price prediction, some at management etc etc... Very hard, if at all.. to find ALL-IN-ONE person that would be master of every component of a trade

Do you know how I know some are PURE fakes? When they ignore the people that got right! I mean, the first test for any real trader is... if he can put MONEY/PROFITS as a TOP PRIORITY... That is why they do "drill sergeant" on them (real ones), to CRACK the useless ego (when trading)... The real trader should care about money.. Not what he like likes, dislikes, what he approves or not... MANY fail at this fundamental shit... It's crazy... They would lose even if you would give them DIRECT data..
like "Please put XX as TP, YY as SL and set ZZ leverage..." They would still fail. I have proven this many times... Well it is debatable if it is possible to profitable longterm/consistently.. without adding the all the ego-derivatives...in... I mean... I sometimes check the ignore lists and it's crazy... You can judge a lot by the ignore list.. Yeah some people are toxic (had to protect the mindset, I agree with that a lot) but what I don't get is why would they ban/ignore the people that contributed most (with proven/profitable signals)... I mean... Any serious trader would work with worst enemy.. if there would be money in it... And don't get me started with some preference people make (some say they are excuses).. like they won't touch some trades because of some activism... They don't stand a chance...
I mean... real trader would be like... If some worst/smelling guy would come and give advise.. for certain amount of times... and it would be profitable... The trader would be like... "my house is your house" or more, wife.. But here people are like... "OMG, this guy SAID that.. OMG.. must ignore him, even though he is giving FREE money advices..."... The hell...

If I could select some things that FAIL a trader (most commonly - in my experiences) are: EGO (with all sorts of derivatives), OVERTRADING or Trading when they shouldn't (should: learn when not to trade; seen many got GOOD profits.. threw them back as gamblers do), totally unrealistic risk management, they don't test basic stat tools to see why some trades are almost impossible... to be made/repeated in the long-run... This can be proven... I mean some people are actually expecting RR 1:1 would make them billion without risking much of the 100USD they started with

BTW.. There isn't a person in the world that I would not work with professionally, if we can both benefit from it at the end of the day.. Specially over the internet. Would wish more would share that so we could create wonders and then do with the profits whatever we want, separately.. Pretty easy and logical right? But see the practice... Hard concept to get... That is why I love wall street people, because they know what they want and you know what to expect... I like CLEAR rules even If I do not necessarily like them... at least I know what I am dealing with. Or to add some fantasy... Check the Bruce Almighty 2003 movie... Epic quote... "since when do people know what they want?" - reply from God to the question why he can't grant a wish to everyone
This might be in deleted scenes, not sure.. either way would recommend them I have seen many deals fail because people were claiming they want something but then it appeared they want something else.. or two things that do not add up at all... Like... hiring a rainmaker that will make you a billion but won'.. In WS it is at least clear af MONEY.. GLORY man.. Bring money, you are best friend, not, you are stranger everyone ignore. But you do know that in advance.. Unlike some other industries that pretend to be "above" it but are MUCH worse, if not for the other reason... because they fake the real identity..

In the "older days" they had this prejudice But my personal rule is.. Do not waste time with "traders" that are not in it for the PROFITS above all else...
Seems logical? Many fail at this simple rule... For example... some do not like others to EARN MORE then them.. I mean, I don't mind if you get 10 billions out of my contribution, If I get SOMETHING even much much less... but still GOOD in "absolute terms" Would be happy with a million, regardless if you make bilion(s)... You won't believe how many fail at this...

Vorenzd Sep 26, 2019 5:31pm | Post# 597

{quote} Was just editing the previous post, but now will add to this reply Also... Yeah, some losing TEs are GOLD, not many seem to realise this... I breakdown trades or TEs to components (if it a trader/TE/post comes to my attention), to search if there is anything useful.. The overall result is maybe the least representable, specially if one looks only the returns (and even DD)... BTW this is how I got started.. almost gave up in the beginning when someone said.. like "wait a minute, adjust this parameter"... and I made some profit finally......
That is how I also started, I spent 13 years as an analyst and not as a trader because I was HORRIBLE at trade managment, but I was very good at determinig the future price / direction. During those 13 years I've learned a lot from more experienced traders. Eventually I got better at trade managment... and I became a true trader. Everyone needs help to become a true trader, and I am not sure if it is possible to get this help on a forum... but maybe in a real investment firm or bank.. as you have many more verified successful traders there.

Even now I still welcome ALL Help, literally, any help is good, it can only make you better. Your way of spotting pure fakes is very interesting, i'd say it has a 100% success rate... my way is a bit different : I look for those members who try to attract a lot of attention to themselves and who like to brag a lot without ever showing any result or any useful contribution. It's also a solid way to find fakes.

But yes, in trading, it is money over everything, it should be like this: no enemies, we are all friends here... nobody cares about political opinions, we only care how to profit... and help each other do that.

I agree with all your 3 things why traders fail... but i would add one more thing : Leverage - most people think they wont ever be in a loosing streak... and they don't have to, but there are black swans and other unpredictable events... and with high leverage you can lose 30%+ your account on that... and from there on you get stressed, your ego kicks in... and then your 3 reasons come again. And people blow the account.

small account + leverage = loser trader

It is easy to get lost in trading and to start gambling. Too easy for most.

People do not know what they want, but we in trading should never pretend - it's money over everything in this buisness. But we can approach it in 2 ways. help eacother and profit together, or choose petty fights and CUT OUR OWN PROFITABILTIY... evne if it's by 1%... it's still bad... imagine if you could be 1% better for every person you meet on FF... we would all be trillionaires now... but sadly people don't cooperate. They prefer to "be right" then to "be better"

auricforecas Sep 26, 2019 5:46pm | Post# 598

{quote} That is how I also started, I spent 13 years as an analyst and not as a trader because I was HORRIBLE at trade managment, but I was very good at determinig the future price / direction. During those 13 years I've learned a lot from more experienced traders. Eventually I got better at trade managment... and I became a true trader. Everyone needs help to become a true trader, and I am not sure if it is possible to get this help on a forum... but maybe in a real investment firm or bank.. as you have many more verified successful traders there....
Epic man... I myself seem! to be good at price prediction (and fundamentals), specially longterm, trends etc... But also, daily.. which is harder due to some stall/anomalies... for the tp/sl/levels I use (my historic) data/experiences and also estimate the future volatility etc... I know I do not have the optimal harvesting strategy... specially since I know what math/stat can do if applied properly.. Many tools to harvest, I created some myself, from scratch but I am sure that there must be some epic ones that would increase profits at least in some strategy accounts... In fact, now that I see in retrospect.. I could have massively increase (in relative and absolute terms) one of my winning streaks in semi-burner account... So the idea of this forum was to timestamp my "predictions".. to find some people that would value it so maybe we could help each other.. And also to find some people that would suggest how to harvest some "predictions" in a better way... Yeah, received some suggestion/brainstorms now and then but much less that I would like... I breakdown trading (for extreme example) to like, rainmaking and plumbing part Some are excellent traders (rainmakers) but are very bad at holding the profits (water).. they don't have the plumbing accessories/skills or not even bucket... And then there are excellent money managers (plumbers but don't have a clue how to make it rain... Which is great, imagine both of them working together.. in the DESSERT Both could be rich... In fact, the problem is that some traders are "tought wrong", they accepted some "golden rules" in trading that they don't seem to be able to unlearn... That is why I was looking for people from completely unrelated professions (engineering, science) to have a look at my trades... Would love to find some hybrid/connector that would suggest OPTIMAL harvest parameters... BTW markets are weird atm, to me, this week in particular... ATM i am building some stat to have it reviewed later... Hope someone could find better way to harvest then to find optimal tp/sl/lev from past trades... or how to harvest predicted trend/line in the most optimal way... ATM seems to be that the simplest solutions are the best but would love for someone to show me wrong.. meaning.. we could make more, together

Vorenzd Sep 26, 2019 6:09pm | Post# 599

{quote} Epic man... I myself seem! to be good at price prediction (and fundamentals), specially longterm, trends etc... But also, daily.. which is harder due to some stall/anomalies... for the tp/sl/levels I use (my historic) data/experiences and also estimate the future volatility etc... I know I do not have the optimal harvesting strategy... specially since I know what math/stat can do if applied properly.. Many tools to harvest, I created some myself, from scratch but I am sure that there must be some epic ones that would increase profits at...
Great comparison to plumbing!

Jim Kwik, a memory expert says the fastest way to learn something is to forget everything you know about it before... I think that's very applicable to trading.

I mostly trade futures and equities, all of those are longer trades and they're all based on fundamentals, so I never have a fixed take profit or trailing stop loss as I just follow the data and go based of that. (of course i have a hard stop loss... which is "dynamic")

My "dynamic" stop loss means that if i buy at 50$, and SL is at 40$, if the price falls to 35$, and then rises back above 40$, a buy will be triggered again at lets say 41$ with a stop loss at 40$ again. This has proven to eliminate the cases where the price reaches the stop loss and reverses... also has enabled me to risk a lot less per trade... so maybe consider this.

When it comes to Forex, I just "follow the big money". Of course I am always very into fundamentals since I'm an economist... but on forex I found that if you follow the big money you can earn a lot... so what does following the big money mean? To me it is seeing the market as one big "farm", a liquidity farm (that is what banks do).

...So I am now a farmer, my goal is to harvest as much crops as possible before going my way or better said, my goal is to harvest as much liquidity as I can before the market goes in my desired direction... i want to get the BEST price for myself... and I can do this at the expense of retail traders (crops). That's how market makers think and that's how I think... there is a reason why Goldman has only 13 unprofitable days in the whole year on Forex. I try to tap into that... trade with them. There is a guy called Steve Mauro who has a very interesting aproach to this style of trading, it's actually really helpful... I do something similar with forex.

I try to identify potential "inflexion" zones where the market "might turn"... then I just watch the capital flow... i watch for the potential hunts, for the potential accumulations... and then I go for the trade... risk reward at least 1:5... usually much more.

These inflexion zones are zones where I notice my "fellow farmers" have found some crops and started harvesting them... you know, when they are farming you just need to go there and get some for your own... you need to fill your basket... they wont mind.

I might start a thread very soon where I will go into detail about this, do some live trading and same as you, try to get people to tell me I'm wrong and explain to me why... if they can make me 0.01% better I will achieve my goal... the goal is to win together, to lose together and to get better together.

Fader123 Sep 26, 2019 6:24pm | Post# 600

I look forward to the thread.....


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