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Bemac May 5, 2007 4:44pm | Post# 1

The Concept of 3D Charting.
 
The Missing Link?

I know I have posted what some would consider to be pretty wierd s#it before but even I will admit that this one is out there.

Even after Trading for so long I still feel that there is another factor to this that I, as yet, have not been able to unravel to my satisfaction.

Why, when I am working in a 3 Dimensional World, am I only looking at 2 of them? {Chart}
Where/What is the Third Dimension?
Volume? Not functional in Retail FX.
Open Interest? I would dearly love to have a datastream on that.
First Notice? Insert your own Lengthy explanation here.
Last Trading Day? This is one I can't believe {place tongue firmly in cheek} that borkers don't routinely provide. Even just for the Current/Spot would be sufficient.
{Hey Merlin, that would be a swee...eet addition to the Calendar}

I have worked on this concept numerous times in the past but always end up throwing it back in the drawer till the next time.

What IF:
the chart you are looking at is not actually like a piece of string laid on a pleasingly coloured background but is in fact a Coil {like a spring} sitting on top of said pleasingly coloured background.

{I'm hoping Thom is into this and perhaps can generate some graphics to help explaine}

"I hate Flat Markets !"

What if we look at the Market as not being Flat but is in actuality travelling in the 3rd Dimension?
Either straight toward you or directly away from you.

Would that help in deciding an upcoming move?

Weekend ramblings of sitting in the Home Office cause it's raining and I can't mow the lawn

The Fxorce May 5, 2007 4:56pm | Post# 2

i've seen something like this. it's expensive. thousand bucks a month or more.
called visual trader or something similar.
it uses like you say springs but rather cylinders that rise and lower into and out of what looks like transparent water.
anyway what i saw looked like a cylinder standing up in water. you can see the part above and below the water. each facet made sense at the time. (over a year ago) the part below water meant one thing. the part above water meant another. you would have successive cylinders as well like candles for every 5minute bar or compression.


heikin ashi candles show momentum based on wick vs body and direction of wick up or down vs trend.

Mother May 5, 2007 5:33pm | Post# 3

i share deeply 3 dimensional view of market. and have been obsessed on this thoug for some time now and have been writing explanation of this phenomenom happening. more importantly WHY? this is happening. As creating question WHY? it creates conspect of question what need ansfer in the way how HUMANS (as i think meany of us are) handel the external world tru our eyes.

as considering Movement,time,space,mass this is the "basic" consepect how mind handels the outcome of happening. and this is created by 3 dimensional grid. tru our eyes. what i beleave have same charastersitic behavor what market creates.

When observing market behavour in more distant perspective. Can create similar charasteristic as we look more closer. but what happens when change timeline of market and look more closer. Perspective actualy get diffrent angel on perspective. as combining this two diffrent timelines of perspectives. it creates 3 dimensional observation of that moment.

Picture from personal memoes.
http://www.kapteeni.org/iRMA/expample.jpghttp://www.kapteeni.org/iRMA/example.gif

i am making research on this phenomen happening. and if everyting goes well might eavent finaly get enought material to finnish my memoes as an book.

but so far as more deeper i look more far i get. and starts to end up in non-linear sciense, utopia and sleepless nights. but this area of science is still only in beginning. as more science starts to observe the random outcome of the reality.

shadeslay May 5, 2007 5:54pm | Post# 4

I was actually thinking of this subject the other day, after viewing some charts with many channels in them almost forming a 3d like model of the market.

What represents the forward/ backward momentum if the 2d model represents up, down, left and right?

The Fxorce May 5, 2007 6:03pm | Post# 5

1 Attachment(s)
visual trader is the name of what i was thinking of.
http://www.visualtrader.com/
i guess it just shows strength and direction of trend of 1 instrument vs others in a group.
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Ted1983 May 5, 2007 7:11pm | Post# 6

They are
 
The Charts already are 3D. 2 space dimensions and time.

The Fxorce May 5, 2007 7:25pm | Post# 7

to locate any point in the universe we need 3 coordinates. i'm not sure if that is what Bemac is after.
Price,Time, (Rate of change?)

Bemac May 5, 2007 7:31pm | Post# 8

to locate any point in the universe we need 3 coordinates. i'm not sure if that is what Bemac is after.
Price,Time, (Rate of change?)
Exactly.
But I'm not even sure what the 3rd point {in retail fx} is ? ? ?
I have some ideas but need some additional input

Bemac May 5, 2007 7:40pm | Post# 9

Hi Mother,
Can you describe your posted images in more detail please?

Mother May 5, 2007 7:43pm | Post# 10

here is small memo as two timelines combines tru RSI 9.

minor observation have been made this works in meany occillator based indicators.

http://www.kapteeni.org/iRMA/exampleRSI.gif

as observing in 4h and creating indication lines how market behaved in that timeline. thos indication lines will create allmost horisontal barriers in 5m time line of perspective. and as creating same indications of 4h top of the 5 min perspective. creating Fragments of time and space where is possible to observe how market pressure behaves inside thos fragments.

resent concusion is that the compilation of 4 lines(middle dark 4 lines in bottom 5 min) creating one tube(trend). its more accurate. but most important is current 4 lines. and the behavour inside thos. (4h. 4 first lines is the start of "trend")

this way there is significant "trend" happening in all the time just in diffrent timelines of perspectives.

thos indication lines in RSI can be confirmed in price action with Fibonacci what creates barriers(horisontal lines) in price movements.

meaby in coming months i can compile small parts to create window for this. have lot of personal notes but Bad english as its not native language. And most of information and screen shot observations are not in clear and story form. due the personal memoes.

accrete May 5, 2007 11:43pm | Post# 11

Hi Bemac and all. Woe, there is some seriously deep thinking going on in this thread ! I've never given it much thought away from the Price over Time in my own mind, but you bring up some interesting ideas. . . will have to give the ol'head a WHACK and see what comes up. I'm wondering if Mother is a child of the 60's. I think i rubbed elbows with some far out thinkers while living on Telegraph Ave in Berkeley in the 60's. grin.

: ) Thom

KudzuFX May 6, 2007 12:20am | Post# 12

impossible, but interesting
 
Exactly.
But I'm not even sure what the 3rd point {in retail fx} is ? ? ?
I have some ideas but need some additional input
An interesting thought indeed - a 3 dimensional forex data output.

I suggest to you a model based on E=mc2.

the first dimension would be M (which is matter) - the price at any given tick. It is what it is and cannot be any different at that point in time. The price or money matter changes over time to weigh less or more.

the second dimension would be C (or constant) - the time factor. It is constant because the intervals between that last segment of time is the same as the next segment of time (at least in forex. you might be able to bend time in other realms.

the third dimension would be E (energy) - the volume of money either flowing into or out of your account. No kidding, not only your wallet, but the wallet of the bank, broker or whoever is on the other side of your trade.

This third dimension is the by product of the first two. It's there in forex, but you just can't see it. The energy of profit and loss is either infused or defused every moment the market it moving.
Hummmmmmmmm ----- I can feel it, I can feel it, I can feel it. Can you?

The Fxorce May 6, 2007 12:55am | Post# 13

i agree with Kudzu. i envision a line chart that changes color (2D) or moves sideways (3D) as tic for tic is examined for [speed of vertical movement] as our third coordinate. perhaps candles that widen when more force is present. I don't think it would be difficult to imagine candles that change colors based on pressure. rather than just red and white heikin ashi candles we would have constantly updating from red to orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet based on speed of vertical movement.
vision a 3D staircase on your chart that widens with pressure. moves up and down with price.

richard olson owner of oanda uses tic data to read price direction. it's pretty straight forward; if the bulls are going to win you'll see more buying. this game is not harder than it seems. a good futures broker/trader/hedge fund owner told me on thursday this week, "You'll have good and bad days. It's all about managing those bad days that will get you through it. I love trading." Simon B. from VCap futures. Great quote.
and Mother does have some far out ideas. i can see his fibonacci/trendline/RSI examples as a benefit to confirmation of price fibonacci retracements. mother suggest fragments or tubes interact with pressure. new tubes/fragments are formed when a new trend is established.

lalilo May 6, 2007 3:02am | Post# 14

1 Attachment(s)
The key to go into 3D is to decide the third dimension. Volume can be a good 3rd factor (if we can get an accurate value).

this picture from the official forum of Metatrader, it looks like 3D with all the MAs. maybe it can inspire someone here
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Bemac May 6, 2007 3:17am | Post# 15

1 Attachment(s)
The key to go into 3D is to decide the third dimension. Volume can be a good 3rd factor (if we can get an accurate value).

this picture from the official forum of Metatrader, it looks like 3D with all the MAs. maybe it can inspire someone here
Sorta been there already. I called it Fantail as I remember.
Name:  Fantail MA's.png
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Size:  177 KB

Daje May 6, 2007 4:21am | Post# 16

third variable
 
What is the exaspiration that is finding what it is that is missing in TA that frustrates efforts to better describe market action and behaviour? I would like to propose that the third dimension should be described as market 'intensity'. As volume is not functional there are other ways to capture those periods when intensity is at its peak and height, and when moving from one to another, etc I addition, one can also transpose ones own trading 'intensity', as returns are the final measure of your own personal performance. This addresses the fact that the market is independant of personal emotion, but the two are very much connected to the results of your account!

I would like to give examples of both as follows:

Market intensity
1) market opens (build up, power hours)
2) market news releases (build up, news release, aftermath)
3) market cycles

Personal Intensity (as this is a personal measure i call it trade "anatomy")
1) Pre trade management
2) at trade
3) post trade management
To illustrate: I use a model that has 3 dimensions when trading: the axis are: time dedicated vs emotive energy vs technical skill. Sectors in that cube dictate whether trading is possible in the first place.

Many participants with experience will understand what it is to know a markets "personality". Can "intensity" = "personality"? I think its close.
Examples of personality are as Mother has pointed out on the posted charts the seemingly incredible coincidences that occur in channel formation in price action. Why does this happen?

The whole Fibonacci thing is essentially trying to capture behaviour of crowds, after all.

Formulating market intensity is certainly possible - this together with ones own personal approach (or your personal Fibonacci!) should formulate the third dimension.

AmatPro May 6, 2007 5:22am | Post# 17

Under the topic "FIX" I have already questioned the possibility of a global "FX Index" to which all the currencies could relate at a given moment.

You could imagine this "weighted" index as some sort of reference "plane" relative to which all the other currencies fluctuate up and down in the course of time.

In addition, the "index plane" could then be horizontal, or upward or downward inclined in the direction of the time-dimension according to the overall economic environment or you could use worldwide inflation for that.

Through the plane in the time-dimension direction you could then draw the curves of the relative values of all the respective currencies to see how they behave and relate to each other and to the common (curved) "index plane".

Mother May 6, 2007 8:18am | Post# 18

Hi Mother,
Can you describe your posted images in more detail please?
here is very breaf over view of the creation of perspective.

http://www.kapteeni.org/iRMA/creationofperspective.gif

1. Consider yourself as the red line floating in space without no perspective.

2. As adding one perspective it gives as tunnel view. as observing the happening can realise that more center of that perspective all lines seem to bind to geather and can not regogonice the distance between two lines. Creating an far distance of tunnel what seem to be endless.

If observing space only with one eye open and looking streight ahead. seems to be hard to analyse what is the exacly the distance of thos objects.

3. By adding another angel of pespective gives more as an Landscape view of horisont. here now is more possible to regognice the distance of perspective. as opening both eyes and observing the horisont in east.
http://www.kapteeni.org/iRMA/functio...%20line%29.gif

As observing here this singel sight of the east horisont is created in four diffrent pespectives. Close on ground,air and distance on ground,air.

4. But what is this second perspective what creates this more real like perspective. Considering that if you stand on a hill and look east horisont and turn around to look West horisont. now combining thos two horisonts where you are in middle on one perspective.

5. as combining thos horisonts in one perspective it creates more 3d minensonal view of singel perspective what can be observed as more precise view of reality what can be seen tru our eyes.

When considering that human dont exacly consider that we are not what we see tru our eyes. we are just bit more back of our sight of view. as looking a can of soda. we are not the can of soda we are behind it observing it.

As if youare the red line and thos horisonts are your eyes.

And this goes more confusing as thos two perspective actualy created more precise way of observing a singel horisont.

6&7. observing this precise way of observation is is actualy created in 3 diffrent zones. (6) when observing thos 3 boxses in middle of thos pespective. can consider that the bottom box is view if looking down to feet, and top box is when looking up on the sky. and middle is where can observe the horisont of an landspace.


Tehnical function of Indicators.

4. when observing that red line is moving market. top and bottom horisonts are the indicators 0 and 100. As more radical movement comes and indicator moves far distance to thos horisont(more closer to 0 or 100) the movemets gets so far away to the horisonts(Variable) of the perspetive(indicator) that it can not be observer properly. as that radical movement comes more an avarange move when more information come available tru market moves(pespective between two horisont gets wider).

market moves up and down in range 20 pips inside variable 9 (9 candels) when market moves suddenly 40 up of down and starts ranging. the indicator will end up on one of thos horisonts(near 0 or 100). while indicator starts now ranging on after this 40 jump up. indicator balanses this as an avarange move. and becomes more center of the horisonts. and will need more radical jump up or down to have smiliar reaction as befour.

questions:
Why "trend" is created by 4 lines(3zones)
Why indicators behaves as real 3dimension perspective of world.

Nerva May 6, 2007 2:27pm | Post# 19

The third dimension could be variable and user-defined. It could include any indicator, inluding RSI, MACD, or a simple moving average. Or perhaps it could also be something the user programs to pull off the Internet.

Result: 3 coordinates in space-time, displayed however the user wants.

brentmack May 6, 2007 6:28pm | Post# 20

...meaby in coming months i can compile small parts to create window for this.
Do that if you get the chance. I believe you're onto something that's interesting.


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