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baronfei Oct 11, 2010 5:12am | Post# 41

MFM
 
On a side note, is there any fellow traders here up for the Meat Free Monday campaign? Here's the link: http://supportmfm.org/ Get to save the earth and save your health, so, why not?

lambergino Oct 11, 2010 5:38am | Post# 42

cool stuff in this thread

psmo Oct 11, 2010 4:57pm | Post# 43

i agree totally that trading is an Art.....creativity in whatever we wish to know is very important and i think its the best method of learning, even in science its creativity that lead to major breakthrough and findings. lets cultivate creativity

Marv Oct 11, 2010 5:13pm | Post# 44

To succeed in trading you need to have a true edge. Period.

These are beautiful things that you're saying, trading being an art and all. I disagree by the way, my opinion being that trading is what it is. You may call it whatever you want, price doesn't care what you believe. It, in itself, is a chaotic mixture of all sorts of different beliefs.

Just because YOU think successful trading is unscientific and is an art, it doesn't mean you should sit back and trade your "gut feeling" and expect to have an edge.

I've always noticed how people who experience some success come back preaching and thinking they know the secrets of trading. "Do this, don't do that, this works, that doesn't work, indicators are useless, multi time-frames are useless, news are useless, only what *I* am using right now works."

Such behavior is only human nature and a product of the ego. I know because I've been there too.

Like someone already said, it may seem like some unscientific "art" to you because you haven't quantified your own trading mechanisms/behavior, which could most likely be done. This leads us again to the nature of the markets themselves: They are moved by people and systems that use all sorts of different/overlapping beliefs and behaviors, creating a chaotic system that we call price.

No matter how smart, educated, experienced, enlightened, disciplined, well-funded (etc.) these market participants are, only a small % will win consistently. That is one of the few facts you can safely embrace.

Good trading!

tunera Oct 11, 2010 5:45pm | Post# 45

To be a good trader you surely need an edge, but there is a fact that i belive true (my belif), and is that there is no edge in the market.

Let me explain, there is no mechanical system that work all the time.

Said this, once you find your edge (a great trading system), the only way to make consistent profit is know when to use it, how to manage the trades, etc.

Trading is an art because of this, even the best edge in the world cannot beat the market.

It's like a soldier and a weapon, even the best weapon of the world is useless if used by an unexperienced soldier, and a soldier without a good weapon rarely survive in the long run.
But if you have an experienced soldier with a great weapon, he will kick asses untill he got sufficient ammunitions. And he have to be careful everytime he engage a battle, because even with the best weapon and a great experience it's up to you if make errors or not.

It's surely much more than an art, and much more than just have an edge, it's trading!

Estero Oct 11, 2010 6:18pm | Post# 46

I conquer
 
To be a good trader you surely need an edge, but there is a fact that i belive true (my belif), and is that there is no edge in the market.

Let me explain, there is no mechanical system that work all the time.

Said this, once you find your edge (a great trading system), the only way to make consistent profit is know when to use it, how to manage the trades, etc.

Trading is an art because of this, even the best edge in the world cannot beat the market.

It's like a soldier and a weapon, even the best weapon of the world is useless if used...

baronfei Oct 12, 2010 12:22am | Post# 47

To succeed in trading you need to have a true edge. Period.

These are beautiful things that you're saying, trading being an art and all. I disagree by the way, my opinion being that trading is what it is. You may call it whatever you want, price doesn't care what you believe. It, in itself, is a chaotic mixture of all sorts of different beliefs.

Just because YOU think successful trading is unscientific and is an art, it doesn't mean you should sit back and trade your "gut feeling" and expect to have an edge.

I've always noticed how people...
That's why trading is an art, you can't get people to agree, its all about perception. You won't disagree by someone saying 1+1=2, would you?

All the same, by stating "I have been there too" is a product of ego in itself too, if you haven't already realise. Don't you think? We are all humans.

By perceiving trading as an art frees one from limitations, and open up to possibilities. It relieves one's psychological burden. And thus, that's the edge in trading (plus almost stress-free of course).

If one truly understand the "chaotic system call price" you were talking about, he shouldn't be contradicting the statement with "quantifying own trading/mechanism".

.......................................

Back to perception again, when someone is generous enough to share a concept/system on the thread, there'd be people funny enough branding them "some success", "preach", "ego", etc. LOL @ you! No offense, but if you haven't realise your negativity here, I can feel it thousand of miles away!

One thing you can safely embraced is this: Negativity is surely a cause of failure.

Don't take my word for it. Demo or live trade it if you are "gutsy" enough. Then prove that it doesn't work, for you, at least

Cheers

baronfei Oct 12, 2010 12:33am | Post# 48

To be a good trader you surely need an edge, but there is a fact that i belive true (my belif), and is that there is no edge in the market.

Let me explain, there is no mechanical system that work all the time.

Said this, once you find your edge (a great trading system), the only way to make consistent profit is know when to use it, how to manage the trades, etc.

Trading is an art because of this, even the best edge in the world cannot beat the market.

It's like a soldier and a weapon, even the best weapon of the world is useless if used...
That's a pretty good analogy we've got there. Cheers.

baronfei Oct 12, 2010 12:44am | Post# 49

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If one doesn't believe he can make it in forex, then trading isn't for him.

Why not face the his reality and end the suffering from there? You can't tell people you are doing it with passion while you don't actually think you can make it?

Does one lies to himself, or is he lying to others?

Does one believes in the mind of lies or does one lies the mind?

If one doesn't believe he can make it in forex, why not be at the couch playing Pro Evolution Soccer at Amatuer mode? It could be alot funner, proabably

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baronfei Oct 12, 2010 12:46am | Post# 50

Pre-setups
 
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Anyway, before my setups, I'd normally like to spend sometime looking at something comfortable to the eyes. Here goes:

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baronfei Oct 12, 2010 1:05am | Post# 51

Setup EU 101012
 
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Set SL to BE, My SLs are 25 to 30 pips... Details at my blog.
I've added English to the calls as per some of the requests.

Mr J Oct 12, 2010 4:02am | Post# 52

In my humble opinion, science can be applied to an art to understand its mechanics, but science can not be applied in practicing an art. Well, in the end, it could just be the difference in our "perceptions" towards the same object. While we are in our own perspective, everything becomes subjective.
Every art has science behind it. We don't think, feel or act randomly, we do so with reason. Not being able to quantify something doesn't mean the numbers behind it don't exist. Science applies to everything.

A similar discussion is decision making based on intuition. Some think of it as some magical sense, but it's just subconscious analysis of information, such as previous experience. Intuition would fall under "art", but there is science behind it. There always is, and that is my point. How we view it doesn't change reality.

And I'd think that perceiving the market from an Art pov would greatly reduce the limits of our otherwise rigid perception.

I would say the opposite - that viewing something as an "art" limits our understanding. Why? Because a typical "art" mindset encourages self-expression, and I think this often leads to a narrow point of view. Why? Because the focus is on this or that, such as one's self, or another person. A logical mindset should focus on everything, without bias.

Well, I'm trying to expand on my concept while I can. You may agree or disagree to my opinions but I find it fruitful to have these kind of conversations, honestly.

I certainly disagree with some of your opinion, but a discussion usually isn't all that interesting when everyone agrees. Disagreement provokes thought, relfection and learning.

nubcake Oct 12, 2010 4:22am | Post# 53

no, you do not conquer... you concur! >/

baronfei Oct 12, 2010 5:04am | Post# 54

Every art has science behind it. We don't think, feel or act randomly, we do so with reason. Not being able to quantify something doesn't mean the numbers behind it don't exist. Science applies to everything.
Art applies to everything, too


A similar discussion is decision making based on intuition. Some think of it as some magical sense, but it's just subconscious analysis of information, such as previous experience. Intuition would fall under "art", but there is science behind it. There always is, and that is my point. How we view it doesn't change reality.

What you view is your reality. How much do science knows about subconcious?



I would say the opposite - that viewing something as an "art" limits our understanding. Why? Because a typical "art" mindset encourages self-expression, and I think this often leads to a narrow point of view. Why? Because the focus is on this or that, such as one's self, or another person. A logical mindset should focus on everything, without bias.

When you are facing your near death experience, do you employ your "logical mindset that should focus on everything"? How much time do you need to source, process, and come out with a decision? How much information can one get from the market, say, like now? How much could your "logical mind" process? I'm not saying we do not use our logic in trading, but logical mind alone don't earn you much pips, bro. Or, 95% of the traders are illogical



I certainly disagree with some of your opinion, but a discussion usually isn't all that interesting when everyone agrees. Disagreement provokes thought, relfection and learning.

Yeah, I like disagreements. But don't take me too seriously, though. And if trading in itself ain't a Art, we should have both came to an agreement long ago. One wouldn't reasonably disagree that 1+1=2, right

Marv Oct 12, 2010 6:46am | Post# 55

baronfei,

By saying "I've been there too once, thinking I suddenly knew it all" I did not mean to claim I know everything, quite the opposite.

Mr J is correct, and your argument is too poor to prove otherwise. There is science behind everything, just because you don't see it and understand it yet doesn't mean it's not there. Just because we haven't revealed all the secrets of the mind and subconsciousness yet doesn't mean they can't be understood some day.

Don't worry. It doesn't mean the universe is any less beautiful or unlimited.

Oh and price being a chaotic system and all, these are scientific facts, not the product of magic. There is nothing supernatural, everything is natural. Our understanding/awareness varies however.

To sum up: If you believe that your edge is in predicting price based on some psychic gut feeling, then good for you. Just don't go out telling other that everything else that any form of advanced analysis is of no use. That would be spreading ignorance. This business has already got enough ignorance, fallacies, and pseudo-science.

Most, if not all, of those who made and make millions in the markets rely on very scientific methods (which they usually, understandably, keep for themselves). That is hardly a coincidence.

Good luck.

baronfei Oct 12, 2010 7:42am | Post# 56

baronfei,

By saying "I've been there too once, thinking I suddenly knew it all" I did not mean to claim I know everything, quite the opposite.

Mr J is correct, and your argument is too poor to prove otherwise. There is science behind everything, just because you don't see it and understand it yet doesn't mean it's not there. Just because we haven't revealed all the secrets of the mind and subconsciousness yet doesn't mean they can't be understood some day.

Don't worry. It doesn't mean the universe is any less beautiful or unlimited. ...
You can have a million ways to say something isn't right, but I don't see one point that added any value to the community here.

Seems like you have totally misunderstood the concept here, it's probably because of one's rigid mindset built. By perceiving trading as an art, doesn't imply one requires supernatural skills; Artists, singers, philosophers ain't psychics. "Just because you don't see it and understand it yet doesn't mean it's not there". Yeah, that's exactly what you wrote. You have a very contradicting mind.

And by "those who made millions in the markets rely on very scientific methods" - What kind of assumptions are those? Do you know anyone of them, personally? Or their trading approach for that matter? This is exactly what you'd call pure ignorance.

Troikaone1 Oct 12, 2010 8:59am | Post# 57

Trading is definitely an art. The human brain is much more complex than any computer that has ever been built. A computer can crunch numbers faster than any human can, but it has limited ability to interpret data. For instance, there are some types of trendlines on a chart that can only be interpreted by a human. I realize that there are some types of software that can draw basic trendlines...but the art of interpreting and applying trendlines on a chart is very complex.

hanover Oct 12, 2010 3:15pm | Post# 58

FWIW, I agree with Mr J. Any decision that doesn't involve some kind of rationale is ostensibly random. Even the most discretionary trader has a reason for making his decisions. Everybody has their own, largely existential, interpretation as to what a word means; for me, anything that involves a conscious, rational decision - whether quantifiable or not - falls under the umbrella of 'science' (Latin scientia,-ae = knowledge).

Outside of knowledge that one is aware of, then, what else remains? If I subconsciously 'feel' that the market is going to move in a certain direction, or reverse at a certain point, is there a reason for that (even if I don't understand its cause), or am I merely being tricked by my ego into believing that I have some kind of subliminal gift? If I 'feel' that an earthquake will occur, or than an airplane will crash, what effect does this have on the likelihood of such an event? Even without getting into a discussion on free will vs determinism, we are nonetheless heading into the realm of psychics and clairvoyance.

I don't think it's possible to state categorically that trading is an art. The existence of just one profitable quant trader, or (dare I say it) EA, would be enough to disprove this assumption. It looks like Craig and Sauron are both on holiday.

Baronfei, if your approach is profitable, nobody can argue with your account balance. As for me, I'm happy to continue with my own part-quant, part-discretionary, non-clairvoyant approach. Anybody can start a thread generalizing that "trading is this" or "trading is that", but the vast majority of these threads have little universal application. As has been said a million times before, each to their own; whatever works profitably for an individual is the 'right' way.

hanover Oct 12, 2010 3:51pm | Post# 59

no, you do not conquer... you concur! >/
But veni, vidi, condixi doesn't have quite the same alliterative ring to it. Caesar would turn in his grave.

baronfei Oct 13, 2010 12:20am | Post# 60

FWIW, I agree with Mr J. Any decision that doesn't involve some kind of rationale is ostensibly random. Even the most discretionary trader has a reason for making his decisions. Everybody has their own, largely existential, interpretation as to what a word means; for me, anything that involves a conscious, rational decision - whether quantifiable or not - falls under the umbrella of 'science' (Latin scientia,-ae = knowledge).

Outside of knowledge that one is aware of, then, what else remains? If I subconsciously 'feel' that the market...
I like your way in putting in an argument! But here's my challenge, but promise not to get mad over it

What does Art means to you anyway?
When you sing, do you sing randomly your pitches and lyrics?
When you draw an art, or a CG image, do you simply paint your image?
Are singers and artists and philosophers psychics or clairvoyant?

So when one perceives trading is an art, he doesn't just pick the trades randomly. Why would you trade part-discretionarily anyway? Does science allow 1+1=2 to be partly discretionary?

Come to think of it, I'm not here to force that belief into people, if you have a way that works for you, and you genuinely enjoy it, its great news!

Anyway, as stated before, art has is not necessarily clairvoyance and psychic abilities! I don't know if all rock stars are psychics as long as I have lived It didn't appear even in anywhere of my initial post LOL, isn't it wonderful how much resistance one could generate on a mere concept?

Hope this would give you something to think about, with an open mind of course


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