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  • Trump Tax Plan Worries Europe

    From spiegel.de

    The world is witnessing a great economic experiment. The United States, the world's most important economy, is transforming itself from a high-tax country to a low-tax paradise. Currently, most companies have to hand over 40 percent of their profits to the taxman, more than any other developed economy. In Germany, it's 30 percent. However, these burdens are now about to be drastically reduced. U.S. President Donald Trump wants to reduce the federal corporate tax rate from 35 to 20 percent. The Senate and the House of Representatives are likely to quickly reach agreement on the bill's final form. The corporate tax ... (full story)

The Tax Plan is irresponsible and is not thoroughly thought out just like Trumps immigration policy which seek to divide people the same thing is achieved here.

As the the article hinted More money will be moved from the poorest 99% to the richest 1% of People especially if other countries follow this direction.

So it signals trouble ahead for the whole world.

There is less trouble in the world when the pie is shared equitably especially for those who are less capable of pulling in any of the pie themselves.
Quoting DonFF
As the the article hinted More money will be moved from the poorest 99% to the richest 1% of People
Please stop making up blatant lies about the tax plan. It doesn't help making statements like this. We need an informed conversation about who this will affect and how, not propoganda like that. I personally don't like the fact that FIFO will be used for calculating capital gains tax...that significantly affects many wealthy people and traders / investors. But there are many good parts of the plan.
Quoting shylastrikes
{quote} Please stop making up blatant lies about the tax plan. It doesn't help making statements like this. We need an informed conversation about who this will affect and how, not propoganda like that. I personally don't like the fact that FIFO will be used for calculating capital gains tax...that significantly affects many wealthy people and traders / investors. But there are many good parts of the plan.
Did you read the article?

Do you understand what has been happening in the world affecting everycountry on the planet for the last 20 years compared to what happened in the previous 20?

Effectively that the middle class has been wiped out and there is the lowest class and richest that the last 2 decades represent the largest transfer of wealth from the 99% of people on the planet to the wealthiest 1%.

You can easily research the above on google and get in the know on this issue

Any sensible tax policy at the global level must seek to slow or stop this transfer since countries and economies are only strengthened long term by building out the middle class meaning people who become professionals and form the consumers of the significant economic drivers such as cars and houses.
Quoting DonFF
{quote} Did you read the article? Do you understand what has been happening in the world affecting everycountry on the planet for the last 20 years compared to what happened in the previous 20? Effectively that the middle class has been wiped out and there is the lowest class and richest that the last 2 decades represent the largest transfer of wealth from the 99% of people on the planet to the wealthiest 1%. You can easily research the above on google and get in the know on this issue Any sensible tax policy at the global level must seek to slow...
You copy/pasted what the article said.. with not a single clue about what its going on and what its going to happen..

Dont be a sheep, think for yourself (if you can)
Quoting DonFF
The Tax Plan is irresponsible and is not thoroughly thought out just like Trumps immigration policy which seek to divide people the same thing is achieved here. As the the article hinted More money will be moved from the poorest 99% to the richest 1% of People especially if other countries follow this direction. So it signals trouble ahead for the whole world. There is less trouble in the world when the pie is shared equitably especially for those who are less capable of pulling in any of the pie themselves.
You sound like a graduate student...
Quoting Rob Mondave
{quote} You sound like a graduate student...
And what is your position?

You havent said anything....
Quoting havo
{quote} You copy/pasted what the article said.. with not a single clue about what its going on and what its going to happen.. Dont be a sheep, think for yourself (if you can)

What is your position?

You have to say something meaningful
Quoting DonFF
{quote} And what is your position? You havent said anything....
You're full of sophomoric cliches. If you were a grown-up 'and' truly interested in my opinion rather than just looking for fodder for an argument, I would tell you what I think. But alas, you are neither and none.
people always beg for income redistribution...and when that happens you end up in a communistic society that eventually falls apart. Capitalism steps in again and even if the wealth was split evenly at that point in time, individuals will naturally pull ahead and become the top 1% again...and then the poor cry for redistribution once again...why dont ppl understand this...lol
Quoting Rob Mondave
{quote} You're full of sophomoric cliches. If you were a grown-up 'and' truly interested in my opinion rather than just looking for fodder for an argument, I would tell you what I think. But alas, you are neither and none.

You you are willing to take the risk in public and sign off on your perception of who I am based on only a few words? Criticising without even stating a reasonable basis or putting forward your own position?
Quoting gamertrader
people always beg for income redistribution...and when that happens you end up in a communistic society that eventually falls apart. Capitalism steps in again and even if the wealth was split evenly at that point in time, individuals will naturally pull ahead and become the top 1% again...and then the poor cry for redistribution once again...why dont ppl understand this...lol
The facts are the facts if people are divorced from day to day reality they will keep using silly slogans like communism etc to dismiss the reality of the way life is going on the planet and put forward realistic thoughtful ideas for solution
  •  Guest
  • | IP XXX.XXX.119.188
We can argue all we want but the truth of this tax plan/cut is well ahead in the unfolding future. It is fiscal policy with monetary connotations ----------> that means whatever benefits (effects) that will be seen must work through the multiplier and for the USA this chain reaction is some 18 to 24 months ahead to becoming observable. Much was assumed in proposing and passing the cuts/plan but the economy is a nonlinear system and inputs (assumed) does not (indeed never) matches outputs assumed (both in terms of scale or even direction of effect). I know many economists are dismissive of the move as ill timed, populist and in fact unnecessary (given the USA economy is already well on the recovery slope of the business cycle). Many also suggest that the elephant in the room is the projected growth in deficit financing. So in fact there are hopes and fears on all sides and arguments about the merits of the move or otherwise are practically useless at this point. The deed is done. What is left (and especially for traders) is to now outline the pros and cons and as either type effect raises its head in the periods ahead we note it early and craft a trading response. It is a very complicated situation that requires a lot of level headedness to evaluate and respond to in the periods ahead. But that is life and trading.

The Crow (-_-) a.k.a The Wickedness
  • Post #13
  • Quote
  • Edited at 4:23am Dec 10, 2017 4:13am | Edited at 4:23am
Quoting DonFF
The Tax Plan is irresponsible and is not thoroughly thought out just like Trumps immigration policy which seek to divide people the same thing is achieved here. As the the article hinted More money will be moved from the poorest 99% to the richest 1% of People especially if other countries follow this direction. So it signals trouble ahead for the whole world. There is less trouble in the world when the pie is shared equitably especially for those who are less capable of pulling in any of the pie themselves.
More businesses moving to the United states means more jobs and manufacturing which means better paying jobs for the poor, and a better chance at upward mobility and a better chance of companies surviving which means longer term jobs and less people getting laid off because the business moved to a different country with a more business friendly environment

which is why Europe is worried because the USA will be the more attractive business environment
Quoting DonFF
{quote} You you are willing to take the risk in public and sign off on your perception of who I am based on only a few words? Criticising without even stating a reasonable basis or putting forward your own position?
Welcome to fight club.........!!! #lets make forex great again 😂😂😂😂😂
Quoting Fadadio
{quote} More businesses moving to the United states means more jobs and manufacturing which means better paying jobs for the poor, and a better chance at upward mobility and a better chance of companies surviving which means longer term jobs and less people getting laid off because the business moved to a different country with a more business friendly environment which is why Europe is worried because the USA will be the more attractive business environment
This could happen but IMO it is unlikely because multinationals already pay very little tax so the lowering of the company tax rate alone, is not necessarily going to make them move their factories to the US.
Also, they keep their money in tax free heavens overseas why would they take it to the US and pay tax when they don't have to?
Why argue??
It's obvious - rich get richer, 💰💰💰stock bubble, banks to be bankrupt in 1-3-5 years....🐒🐒🐒

Dollar strong now, drop when people wake up. 😱😱😱
I'm waiting 1.15 EU to long. 👍
Simple.
🍻
  • Post #17
  • Quote
  • Edited at 7:17am Dec 10, 2017 7:04am | Edited at 7:17am
Quoting dkrock
{quote}....
world lives under a socialist model where the government takes care of the people...
.. allow me to educate you...... The transfer of money is not to the rich, but to the government..... ..
You're a liar.
A big stinking liar. 🐒🐒📢📢📢😟😟😈😈

Check the below two charts, found by googling wealth distribution US....
Top 1/1000 own more than poor 900/1000!!!
As u see half % are super rich (yes 0.5%) owing more than the poorest 90-93%. And that's for 2013!!! imagine next years 😭😭😭. Chart don't lie....and we know Trumpy's tax proposal - cut rich's tax. Booom . Soooo?? is that socialist ????
Look at the green and red line. Second chart!!!!
See the middle class sqashed??? Rich up??? Need glasses ????

Now imagine the 5% middle class line..... It's about where 0.5% will be about now....which is 50% wealth. Veeeery socialist .
Liar !!

So 0.5 % richer than 95% of the population???. Approximately .... 😭😭😭🐒

As i said dkrock is a liar!!!!
Oops.
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Lower taxes never mean less money to the government...because lower taxes = less motivation to "hide" money, so many times people bring more money in.
Quoting OnlineAddict
Lower taxes never mean less money to the government...because lower taxes = less motivation to "hide" money, so many times people bring more money in.
You're good guy Online Addict
It's not about the amount of money!!!
It's about who burdens the most....and who will get much much richer....

And mr rock liar above is delusional.

What 39%??? Hahaha.... All the deductions??? Write -offs??? Expenses accounts??? Maybe 15% effective tax... Average.
Get the liar to check THAT. 🐒🐒

Tomorrow cut TAX to 29%..... Don't care exactly.... so effective 12%???? Check THAT!!!

Oh yes the rich 1% will feel the shock of.... heavy wallets.!!!!
Anyway, I'm not arguing with blabbers.
  •  Guest
  • | IP XX.XXX.121.120
DRock there is no need to characterize other commentator's even if you feel criticized or you disagree with some or all of their words.

Everyone is encouraged to make their contribution and state their ideas and thoughts here.

Most don't even understand their own ideas and thoughts but by stating it they will start understanding it better which benefits all.

Our job here as we comment is to keep an open mind so we can learn something.
Taxes paid to the state as a way to reduce poverty..

Best lie ever sold.
Well Dkrock I see what you are saying. But as non American I see much the same as Elon. We are going down. Every system social, democratic and so on are wery good in theory but in practic wery bad as humen factor is killing all good with those ideas.
Fact is that few procent rich owns welth. And it is not going to chage no matter which way taxis are going.
I would describe system like rich is rigging it in their fawor and no matter what is newer going to lett it go. Same for poor, they are multiplaying and like rabits populating earth, I mean us other 98% poor.
So in the end earth those not have reasources for all of us to become rich the same way. So we need wars to richer to become more rich and to destroy oour self (earth)
HI dkrock no Imeant Elon Musk. And agree bove with you
Yes you are right about his view as civilization we are going down either wars or depleted Resources or AI is going to finish us. And he is making run for the mars.
@dkrock i also saw the articel and was curious and then saw the comments myself, it got angrier and uglier by the comment lolololol
My question to all of you is this. If its such a great thing for America this tax plan and if is going to bring all that money and wealth into the country then why increase the government debt by one and a half trillion dollars at the same time? And one more question who is going to pay that debt? Sorry, that was a second question but one that I think is much more important.
Quoting Genimi
Taxes paid to the state as a way to reduce poverty.. Best lie ever sold.
Tax cuts to corporations to increase jobs is the best lie ever sold.
Thanks NKPMG for your graph

Put aside the immature stuff guys and have a reasonable conversation around the reason why as a species we have not been able to impact the 90% curve heading down as it has since the '80s.

Whether or not anyone accepts this it does not change the reality that this is equivalent to an asteroid heading toward the planet.

It is within this context that I mentioned the Tax plan as being something that will not be able to move the needle in a direction to rescue this failed financial system.

For those Americans who does not understand the Global context and America as the leader. Please update your awareness before you go off on a tangent on the role of America in the world, since America as the Leading empire on the planet is responsible for this failed system.

https://www.forexfactory.com/attachm...5&d=1512907461
Quoting Nick.
{quote} Tax cuts to corporations to increase jobs is the best lie ever sold.
Some of the cuts are to the Middle class taxes .
I could never figure out how cutting taxes for everyone who pays taxes, is a bad thing!
Republicans WIN!

Round two, FIGHT!
Quoting Genimi
{quote} Some of the cuts are to the Middle class taxes .
Did you know that in Trump tax cuts plan the corporation tax cut is permanent while the rest of the tax cuts are not permanent? Do you know why that is?
Because at one point when they cant borrow money anymore and they have to raise taxes to pay the debt, is middle-class that's going to get their taxes increased. You have to understand that just like you have to pay back what you borrow from the bank (rich people) the same with the government. That's right the government has to pay that money back to the banks (the rich people).
That's right bud. Rich people by not paying taxes is making the government borrow the money to pay for its social services. The money in case you didn't know come from the rich people (Federal Reserves it's a private institution) and that way they got themselves a good "little" profitable business deal.
Quoting COGSx86
I could never figure out how cutting taxes for everyone who pays taxes, is a bad thing!
The corporations get a tax cut of 60% which is permanent. The middle class gets a 1% tax cut which is not permanent. The government now that it can't raise taxes for its mighty military service has to borrow the money (1 and a half trillions) so it can cover what rich people refuse to pay.
Does it make sense? Because is if it doesn't I will try to explain again. My philosophy is this; no one should be left without an understanding of the matter I don't care how long it takes.
The funny thing about tax increases, is that they are always requested by the low and middle income populations, expecting the taxes to solely affect the wealthy populations, while benefiting themselves.

What actually happens is that the wealthy have physical and capital mobility, as well as connections and resources to avoid legally (usually) the "redistribution" through taxation. The governments however have already planned on receiving said tax revenue and so the burden inevitably falls upon the very people who vote for tax increases, the lower and middle income distribution.

Even if you took all the wealth from the top 1% in the US it would barely put a dent in the Natl Debt. So the wealthy "not paying their fare share" is a non-sequitur...

If people were smart they'd vote for less taxes for everyone. But, then again, people in general are not smart.

And who are we kidding? The USG doesn't fund itself through tax revenue. That has been a cute cover for decades now. The US funds all of its MASSIVE social and MASSIVE military budgets through printing money, and through a complex series of steps meant to hide reality, merrily monetizing the debt through inflation (no not the highly inaccurate if not willfully fraudulent CPI, but the actual cost of goods and services measured through real purchasing power, not nominal: including tuition, healthcare, food, fuel, rent, etc)

In reality the US Federal Govt should eliminate all income taxes considering that taxes have been solely used to pay on interest on the debt as a pretext for why the US is still "credit worthy". Get rid of all federal income taxes. Let everyone be taxed equally. Through inflation.

The big picture is the US (and the rest of the world) are going to print money and continue to inflate all asset bubbles: Stocks, Bonds, Real Estate, BTC (everything but the asset most hated by central banks : gold) until the dollar breaks because the rest of world has set up alternative modes of payment. This is still likely atleast a decade (or three) away, and until then the US will continue to run up the deficit and natl debt because there are no consequences...

Tax cuts are a red herring in a globalized system. Its significantly more complicated then im making it out to be but its dinner time

Happy green pips to all this week!
Ok so let's say I was part of the stupid people in general and now I'm not anymore because you opened my mind to this amazing way of looking at tax cuts and how it benefits everyone if we pay fewer taxes.
So now that we are all smart to know fewer taxes is better. Why don't we just stop paying taxes altogether? If fewer taxes can make life better for everyone imagine how much better we could all be if we didn't pay taxes at all.
The US has rightly or wrongly decided to do whats right with its back yard.
Its self sufficient and will economically stifle others who have relied on it for handouts.

Europe being one with military protection
China being another with its cheap good exports.

Lets see how this pans out but I would be getting very nervous of EU and China economies.
Both will suffer short term from this shift .

As FX traders this means opportunities for position taking .
Quoting Nick.
Ok so let's say I was part of the stupid people in general and now I'm not anymore because you opened my mind to this amazing way of looking at tax cuts and how it benefits everyone if we pay fewer taxes. So now that we are all smart to know fewer taxes is better. Why don't we just stop paying taxes altogether? If fewer taxes can make life better for everyone imagine how much better we could all be if we didn't pay taxes at all.
I'm not exactly sure where I actually called anyone stupid. I described the general public as not smart but I think that is a verifiable and empirical fact. If you took that personally and internalized it I'm sorry.

Property taxes pay for all police/fire/teacher services. Our state taxes pay for state police and natl. guard so our critical services remain running without fed income tax. Property taxes while morally grey, considering they are nothing more then ground rent) atleast serve the community from which they are extracted.

Federal taxes are significantly more convoluted. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong. In fact they can/could be beneficial depending on your viewpoint especially as regards natl defense. But where does the line get drawn about what is defense related? Actual physical defense of US mainland? Defense of US territories? Defense of US allies? Preemptive, offense strikes? I don't run the empire so fortunately I don't have to make that call.

But this constant drum beat of the rich are evil is the same nonsense that continually separates people into the category of "other", leads to lack of understanding, and leads to envy, hatred, and eventually violence...

Us Vs. Them.

Rich vs. Poor.
Old vs. Young
Black Vs. White Vs. Asian vs. ETC
Republican Vs. Democrat
Conservative Vs. Liberal
Libertarian Vs. Authoritarian
And on and on the divisions go...

Divide Et Impera, No? Why can't we all just get along?

And more importantly why cant the adults in the developed world discuss the real facts, using real frames of reference not some pseudo-reality dictated by the Television?

I'm starting to rant so I'll stop now but one last question, this one not at all rhetorical:

So to clarify, are you implying that people are not better off when the get to keep the full fruits of their labor?


Just an honest question. Your views are appreciated and welcome.
A tax cut does not take from the poor. When you factor in benefits from the various welfare programs, the bottom tax brackets in this country are not net tax payers. Any talk about wealth redistribution is just people crying about not getting a free ride anymore. Don't believe the hype. Wealth needs to go to productive people. Want a piece? Get off your lazy butt and produce.
Quoting Mwfinad1211
{quote} I'm not exactly sure where I actually called anyone stupid. I described the general public as not smart but I think that is a verifiable and empirical fact. If you took that personally and internalized it I'm sorry. Property taxes pay for all police/fire/teacher services. Our state taxes pay for state police and natl. guard so our critical services remain running without fed income tax. Property taxes while morally grey, considering they are nothing more then ground rent) atleast serve the community from which they are extracted. Federal...
My simple question to you would be how would you explain people working harder and smarter than ever before globally while seeing less and less than they and their parents before who were less skilled and didnt work as hard.... that 0.10% vs the 90% income distribution does tell the full story of life on the planet and the trajectory is not encouraging.
Quoting Pipfu
A tax cut does not take from the poor. When you factor in benefits from the various welfare programs, the bottom tax brackets in this country are not net tax payers. Any talk about wealth redistribution is just people crying about not getting a free ride anymore. Don't believe the hype. Wealth needs to go to productive people. Want a piece? Get off your lazy butt and produce.
You missed the boat on this wealth distribution is the concern of all reasonable minded people the likes of Warren Buffet etc....Cos they are wise enough to understand that the broader or bigger the middle class the more promising the future is for them since it clearly means that more and more people are getting prosperous so there is genuine sustainable growth.
Quoting DonFF
{quote} You missed the boat on this wealth distribution is the concern of all reasonable minded people the likes of Warren Buffet etc....Cos they are wise enough to understand that the broader or bigger the middle class the more promising the future is for them since it clearly means that more and more people are getting prosperous so there is genuine sustainable growth.
Exactly. But taking the money from corporations and giving it to non productive people doesn't foster growth in the middle class. It encourages people not to work. We have generations of people who live entirely of of welfare. Not just a couple of years until they get on their feet, multiple generations. The problem isn't the rich, it's the government promotion of non productivity.
Waste of time. People are way too ignorant.
Quoting DonFF
{quote} My simple question to you would be how would you explain people working harder and smarter than ever before globally while seeing less and less than they and their parents before who were less skilled and didnt work as hard.... that 0.10% vs the 90% income distribution does tell the full story of life on the planet and the trajectory is not encouraging.
A fair question and one with a "relatively" straightforward answer (and yet one that requires information from multiple disciplines and fields to answer correctly).

That answer can be boiled down to two words. Inflation and Financialization.

The fact is that the trend within the US towards wealth inequality beginning in earnest in the 1970's is no coincidence. (Please feel free to google readily available charts)

This is quite obviously linked to the closing of the gold window in 1971 and the introduction of the petrodollar in 1974 as its replacement.

Ever since that time, the limit on the creation of the quantity of currency has been removed from the global system. I say global because while the Euro, Pound, Yen, Franc, Etc obviously exist separately, they are all in many ways simply derivatives of the USD. The USD is the main global currency Defacto and Dejure and the rest of the currencies move in relation to it.

Now what I am about to elucidate is far more complicated then time permits but I will do my best to give a basic synopsis in effectively answering the meat of your question without making this post a novel.

How do most people in the lower and middle income populations earn income?
How do most people in upper income populations earn income?

The answer, while deceptively simple (yet while being significantly more complex) lies in the answer to those two questions.

The lower and middle income populations receive "Earned income" from wages through jobs (Usually one stream of income)
The upper income populations earn income through Rent, Business Income, and Capital Gains on assets owned. (Usually multiple diversified streams of income)

This is the crux of the issue. And it is why it is so hard to "redistribute equal outcomes" because it has more to do with learned behavior patterns then anything else (not a value judgement just an empirical fact).

I am most definitely not the first to suggest such a thing, however, since 1971, money printing and its inherently inflationary pressures have reduced the return from saving and transferred the wealth and opportunity from savers to debtors and investors.

Those whom borrowed in depreciating (real not nominal) Fiat currency and used such debt to purchase productive (all the better if they be cash flowing) investments/assets have seen a significant increase in their share of the income and wealth gains.

Those who saved not only found that their saved currency lost purchasing power over time, but (whether they realized it or not) also sacrificed the huge opportunity cost of productively deploying that capital in search of a (real not nominal) return.

In addition, the government's attempt to fix things, via loans and social programs has dramatically inflated the cost of these related services.

Why is tuition so high? Because anyone with a pulse can take out a $200,000 student loan (issued and guaranteed by the federal govt) for a degree in music, gender studies, or art. Being that every lower and middle income child in America in the last decade has been programmed to view the trades as work that is beneath them, and that a college degree is a "basic right" and requirement to a high paying job, the fact that govt makes these loans grossly distorts the market for a college degree. Supply and demand and such... Prices rise equal to demand of what the market will bear. Since the USG is not price sensitive, and keeps issuing larger and larger loans prices keep increasing. Students leave school with a non-dischargable debt and a piece of paper that produces no cashflow and can't be sold back to its issuer.

If loans for degrees were quarantined to only degrees that showed a certain return (i.e. degrees that produced a significant income through jobs for its recipients i.e. math, physical sciences, IT & computer programming, essentially STEM, etc, then these loans would be easily able to be paid off and would keep the people who just "want a degree" from a life of debt slavery. But then this returns to financial education and verges off in a different direction.

The same argument and statements made above apply to many other government programs meant to "help" the lower/middle income distribution populations...

In addition to such pressures, (which is where things get even more complicated and begin to segue into sociological and political discussions) obviously technology and geographical labor arbitrage has reduced labors share of the wealth to a large degree. Personally I'm not sure there is a long term solution within the current system. Likely the entire system needs to be redesigned to include gains from automation and so forth.

This again broaches a far larger topic of which I have no real desire to delve into.

What this country truly needs is better financial education (education about debt, interest, taxes, compounding, investment, entrepreneurship, etc) but that is again a whole other topic and this post is already too long.

So to conclude its not that taxes necessarily are wrong but that discussing taxes within the confines of the current incarnation of our systems marriage of crony financial capitalism and state power (ironically Mussolini's definition of fascism) seems a moot point. The entire system is an ever expanding ponzi scheme which will continue to expand and run, until it doesn't.

My point is rather then fighting people over our political affiliations, our economic status', or our race/religion/creed, we should be devoting resources to a top down redesign of the entire system because it is flawed (if not fraudulent) at its base. However power structures and special interests are real. Which is why I am not surprised that so much useful and intelligent energy is dissipated arguing rather then discussing how to rectify the system.

I tried to be as brief as possible to answer something that can really be given no brief answer.
I apologize because this post surely left out critical details.
I apologize because I'm sure this post was still too long.
The greenback used during the civil war was the ideal way for Fiat money . It worth as much as gold
Quoting DonFF
{quote}
Your statement
Quote
people working harder and smarter than ever before globally while seeing less and less than they and their parents before who were less skilled and didnt work as hard
, is actually not a true statement.

Statistically speaking with income mobility everyone is getting richer and in actual fact the poorer are getting wealthier on a percentage basis and yes even above inflation. This has resulted in the poor being the richest poor that has ever been.

In 1920 the average wage was .5 cents an hour. A 3lb chicken cost 1.17$. So a individual would have to work 2.5 hours to buy a chicken. In 1997 average wage was 12.5$ and that same chicken costs 2.99$. Now all a person has to do is work 15 minutes to earn a chicken.

Another example in the 1960s a stationary home stereo was priced at 500$. Today you can buy 5 ipods. Or a hand held smart phone, which is x times higher capacity for the same price today. To take it further that 500$ stereo today would be worth over 3880$. To say the poorer are getting poorer today is a short sighted unrealistic idea, used by socialists to further the agenda of more government and more control.

Which has statistically been shown to not work and as the war on poverty has continued( for votes) the trillions spent on poverty hasnt changed a thing. Talking about US debt which is over 20 trillion today, the war on poverty has cost even more.





http://www.heritage.org/sites/defaul...hart-2-825.jpg
Quoting COGSx86
{quote} Your statement {quote} , is actually not a true statement. Statistically speaking with income mobility everyone is getting richer and in actual fact the poorer are getting wealthier on a percentage basis and yes even above inflation. This has resulted in the poor being the richest poor that has ever been. In 1920 the average wage was .5 cents an hour. A 3lb chicken cost 1.17$. So a individual would have to work 2.5 hours to buy a chicken. In 1997 average wage was 12.5$ and that same chicken costs 2.99$. Now all a person has to do is work...

I like your reasoned comments and for sure we can have more of this kind of discourse here.

Did you also check out the amount of qualified university graduates existed in 1920s compared to today? And also the corresponding salaries?

I don't agree that the chicken you would have worked for in 1920s is the same quality chicken that you are describing there Back then you had what is now called organic chicken the others are just ordinary toxic laden birds. Check this out:

Inserted Video
"...great economic experiment."? lol Nowhere near the experiment that suggests. Been done and with success a lot of places. Such as the lower corporate tax nations we will now be competitive with.

The 1% are not bound to nor do they much identify with a nation. That said it has been the US as the engine of wealth and progress since WW2. Europe could barely stack rubble to make a shelter w/o the Marshall Plan. The middle class has been squeezed by socialist programs more than by the greed of the 1%.
Quoting gat
"...great economic experiment."? lol Nowhere near the experiment that suggests. Been done and with success a lot of places. Such as the lower corporate tax nations we will now be competitive with. The 1% are not bound to nor do they much identify with a nation. That said it has been the US as the engine of wealth and progress since WW2. Europe could barely stack rubble to make a shelter w/o the Marshall Plan. The middle class has been squeezed by socialist programs more than by the greed of the 1%.
We can either live in the past or move bravely towards the future but cant do both simultaneously.

The biggest challenges of building stable long-term platform for growth and equity in the world cannot be met looking at the rear view mirror and patting ourselves on the back.

We must learn from the past in building better future.
To maintain the high US corporate tax rate would be living in the past. Lowering it is moving forward. Europe simply does not want a more competitive arena.

If you are referring to the 1% for a better future don't count on them. Whether capitalism, communism, or what they always win. Tax rates make no difference to their status.

For more equity perhaps mincome. That would make the poor and middle class more equal but the 1% would still be the same people.
Quoting gat
To maintain the high US corporate tax rate would be living in the past. Lowering it is moving forward. Europe simply does not want a more competitive arena. If you are referring to the 1% for a better future don't count on them. Whether capitalism, communism, or what they always win. Tax rates make no difference to their status. For more equity perhaps mincome. That would make the poor and middle class more equal but the 1% would still be the same people.

So you are of the view that changing a tax rate is all that is needed to achieve the things these guys say they want to achieve by changing the rate?
Quoting COGSx86
{quote} Your statement {quote} , is actually not a true statement. Statistically speaking with income mobility everyone is getting richer and in actual fact the poorer are getting wealthier on a percentage basis and yes even above inflation. This has resulted in the poor being the richest poor that has ever been. In 1920 the average wage was .5 cents an hour. A 3lb chicken cost 1.17$. So a individual would have to work 2.5 hours to buy a chicken. In 1997 average wage was 12.5$ and that same chicken costs 2.99$. Now all a person has to do is work...
i tend to agree - without the last para. as far as i know, the us debt increased to actual levels mainly due to costs of war and stabilizing the us banking system.

tax reform is a must and adresses main problems of us tax law.
Why not have other nations raise their corporate tax rates to match the present US rates DonFF?

The changes being made here will deal with some issues like repatriation of profits. Also losing corporations that have moved because of the abusively high rates here.

The rates will simply not have much effect on the middle class short term. Long term it will help keep jobs here. To improve the average Joe's condition there are much more meaningful ways such as containing medical care costs. That's containing, not just shuffling who pays. Or a mincome as mentioned above. but that would have to be done right and that will never happen with socialists. They love all the power they have with the myriad of programs that accomplish nothing.
Quoting gat
Why not have other nations raise their corporate tax rates to match the present US rates DonFF? The changes being made here will deal with some issues like repatriation of profits. Also losing corporations that have moved because of the abusively high rates here. The rates will simply not have much effect on the middle class short term. Long term it will help keep jobs here. To improve the average Joe's condition there are much more meaningful ways such as containing medical care costs. That's containing, not just shuffling who pays. Or a mincome...
If people are making the decision based on those generalizations its no wonder why the policies have been doomed in the past, between 2000-2008 for example, resulting in everyone going over the cliff. And now you are saying lets try this again?
Quoting COGSx86
{quote} Your statement {quote} , is actually not a true statement. Statistically speaking with income mobility everyone is getting richer and in actual fact the poorer are getting wealthier on a percentage basis and yes even above inflation. This has resulted in the poor being the richest poor that has ever been. In 1920 the average wage was .5 cents an hour. A 3lb chicken cost 1.17$. So a individual would have to work 2.5 hours to buy a chicken. In 1997 average wage was 12.5$ and that same chicken costs 2.99$. Now all a person has to do is work...
I pretty much agree with everything you said. Its a shame people only see themselves as richer or poorer based on what the millionaire next door is making and not in terms of the time required to purchase new goods. It is a clear fact that over the past century the lag between the first people to receive a new good and the majority of the population to receive a new good has vastly decreased.
Quoting gamertrader
{quote} I pretty much agree with everything you said. Its a shame people only see themselves as richer or poorer based on what the millionaire next door is making and not in terms of the time required to purchase new goods. It is a clear fact that over the past century the lag between the first people to receive a new good and the majority of the population to receive a new good has vastly decreased.

No one view life like that cos its totally divorced from reality instead most people see life in terms of how easy or difficult it is to make your way in the world regardless of where you live.

100 years ago if you were lucky to be a university graduate you would be given a house and a car to work for many companies....Now a days most university graduates cant even find a job to repay their student loan.
Anyone who doesnt realize this as one of the greatest problem facing the next generation must be living under a rock.

Clearly we are rapidly becoming a victim of our own progress with the use of technology vastly displacing manpower at a faster pace than we have been able to adjust. This is the main reason for the 90% wealth distribution trending downward since the 1980s when the use of technology started gathering pace.

This is not to say we should go back to an age without technology. I am saying that by failing to understand the challenges and focusing on the solutions instead of this silly Tax plan which has been tried and failed miserably in 2007.

The USA and the world deserve to have leadership which is capable of identifying and solving real problems rather than using their own financial well being to set policies that benefit themselves and a few cronies while destroying the chance for stability and economic growth.
Quoting DonFF
{quote} No one view life like that cos its totally divorced from reality instead most people see life in terms of how easy or difficult it is to make your way in the world regardless of where you live. 100 years ago if you were lucky to be a university graduate you would be given a house and a car to work for many companies....Now a days most university graduates cant even find a job to repay their student loan. Anyone who doesnt realize this as one of the greatest problem facing the next generation must be living under a rock. Clearly we are rapidly...

Ya because getting a degree in:

philosophy
arts
psychology
history
science

or whatever other funny degree people get of course they cant find jobs. Real degrees which offer a real return to the economy offer real jobs:

Engineering
Nurses
Doctors
Accountants
Lawyers
Software Engineering
etc

All of these add value to the economy. To take it further why dont people go to tech school or college to a diploma in a field that actually gets you a job?

Electrician
Millwright
Plumber
Vet Assistant
Dental Assistant
etc


Everyone has a hard on for degrees but not every degree gets you a job. People can get all the education they want but if it doesnt apply to the real world what good is it?

But again to bring it back putting more money in peoples pockets adds growth to the economy thats a simple fact, that cant be argued with statistics. Because all the statistics show it works.
DonFF: What's your plan?

Do you know what a mincome is? You have ignored that idea while focusing on tax plans. How would you solve our problems?
What's the old adage... "If you are born poor its not your fault. If you die poor its your fault" (Stop blaming the rich for all your problems)
Given that start-up companies and entrepreneurs are among the largest contributors to new jobs then these tax cuts to companies should be of much benefit to everyone! It doesn't just go to the big end of town.
Quoting midaspro
What's the old adage... "If you are born poor its not your fault. If you die poor its your fault" (Stop blaming the rich for all your problems)
Maybe its easier if you get it out your mind that a conversation about treating people with respect and dignity for the work they do on the planet in all countries is about being against anyone but those who feel they have to enslave others to survive.
DonFF: You replied to midaspro but not me. I'm open to your ideas for solving problems. Let us know what you would do.
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  • Posted: Dec 9, 2017 7:25pm
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     Newsstand
    Category: Fundamental Analysis
    Comments: 61  /  Views: 16,820