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  • May's Message Should Be to Britain, Not Europe

    From bloomberg.com

    U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May travels to Florence this week to deliver a long-awaited speech on her Brexit strategy. The venue and timing are not ideal -- it’s a speech she should have given months ago, to a British audience -- but if she gets the substance right, she can still help her country avoid the very worst effects of this unfolding Brexit disaster. The U.K. voted to quit the European Union in June 2016. A year passed before talks even began. Since then, three months of negotiations have gotten nowhere. The exit procedure sets a deadline of March 2019, but the real deadline is actually six months sooner ... (full story)

  • #1
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  • Sep 21, 2017 3:41am Sep 21, 2017 3:41am
UK were never going to get a Brexit deal because the EU doesn't want one unless it's ridiculously in their favour. The EU is more interested in ensuring that no other country follows the exit route rather than doing a sensible deal. Intelligent people who voted for Brexit were always aware that this was likely to be the case and were prepared to deal with some short term difficulties for the long term good. Sounds like this Bloomberg article has come straight from the EU Press Office.
  • #3
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  • Sep 21, 2017 4:30am Sep 21, 2017 4:30am
Quoting barkie
Hidden
Stop being so negative Barkie and think of the longer term. Where do you think the EU will be in 5 years? My main concern is finding the right leader for the UK. Don't think May is that person and Corbyn certainly isn't.
  • #4
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  • Sep 21, 2017 4:40am Sep 21, 2017 4:40am
  •  Trader#FEDF
  • | Status: Unregistered Trader
EU was a good deal to start with, peace after ww2 and better trade through a united europe etc etc, but it grew too big and imposing on it's member states. Also wanting to hide some of it processes when picking people for certain positions didn't exactly help them along the way either. Like who the f was Van Rompuy anyways and why was it so hard to motivate him being picked as EU President to such an extent they had to do it behind closed doors? Also trying to say that cucumbers should be a certain way and that only certain types of chocolate were "real" chocolate. It's become a micromanaging joke.
  • #5
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  • Sep 21, 2017 4:44am Sep 21, 2017 4:44am
I do so wish news reporters would simply report the news rather than peppering it with personal opinions and adding their own bias and prejudice...
  • #6
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  • Edited 5:32am Sep 21, 2017 5:19am | Edited 5:32am
Quoting jimr
{quote} Stop being so negative ... and think of the longer term. .
OK lets do that..
Given, this forum focuses on economic issues eith implications for exchange rate..
You make two points worth noting.
That "Intelligent people who voted for Brexit were always aware that this was likely to be the case and were prepared to deal with some short term difficulties for the long term good"
NP.

You then asked ..Where do you think the EU will be in 5 years?

With respect.. the issue given that "Brexit is Brexit".. that the UK is leaving the EU not the opposite..
that is of periphical concern to the discussion?
The Question for Exiteers is "Where do you think the UK will be in 5 years?

Im not alone in my frustration as Exit agnostic, in finding from Exiteers a credible answer to this question..
And Im speaking about the economic prosperity of the ordinary person.. public services, responsible governence, the state of the Union etc etc..

Im reminded of the addage.. "If you dont know where you are going..any road will get you there.."
I forone have no idea at a practical economic level where we are going here.
  • #7
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  • Sep 21, 2017 5:25am Sep 21, 2017 5:25am
Quoting barkie
Hidden
Intelligent/Barkie

This is by far the biggest paradox.
  • #10
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  • Sep 21, 2017 6:32am Sep 21, 2017 6:32am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Im not alone in my frustration as Exit agnostic

Stop pretending your are an Exit agnostic. You made up your mind long ago, I did a keyword search for disaster on your post history, here are just three of those:


1. The whole thing is a JOKE.
Certainly for me.. as an onlooker..
But a disaster for my fellow countrymen and women living in the UK.
https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...9#post10188870


2. love and respect my country , its unwritten constitution , my Monarch and reputation for civilisation.
Where I live is not your business nor is any proscription on the validity of my views on the disaster that is being visited on my countrys prosperity and its place in the world by the idiocracy that currently dominates its course.
https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...9#post10188870


3. It is the very difficulty you refer to in getting any common consensus among EU members in agreeing exit terms for UK.. which when combined with the Art.50 Time Limit ... and the sequential nature and time it takes to negotiate new International BiLateral trade Agreements.. is EXACTLY what makes it a potential medium term disaster for a Hard Brexit outcome.
https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...er#post9200187


STOP LYING
  • #11
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  • Sep 21, 2017 6:43am Sep 21, 2017 6:43am
http://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2017/07/07/world-economic-outlook-update-july-2017
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #12
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  • Edited 7:48am Sep 21, 2017 7:00am | Edited 7:48am
Remainers need to stop telling themselves that Brexiteers are illogical or unintelligent.

The Brexit referendum was judged on individual values that individuals ranked in order of importance. This is both a subjective choice, and one influenced by personal circumstance.

Some people value the economy the most, others sovereignty, others control of migration, other the preservation of their culture. The result is that each person is voting according to their own preferences which almost certainly aligns with their own self interest and that may result in different referendum choices.

It is perfectly logical for a person who values sovereignty most to then decide to leave the EU to regain control of their law making. Can anyone say that was not the logical or intelligent choice given their preferences?

Disagreement with referendum choices is often actually a disagreement of individual values and the relative importance each one of us gives them. Does anyone seriously believe that liberty has any less value than free trade to all people?

The only dumb people are those who cannot conceive that others might weight values differently and as a result form different opinions. That inability to understand that others have values of their own is a serious mental deficiency.

Keep woofing!
  • #13
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  • Sep 21, 2017 7:19am Sep 21, 2017 7:19am
Quoting barkie
Hidden
Barkie, I can't figure out if you are on a wind up or are genuinely really stupid.
  • #14
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  • Sep 21, 2017 7:19am Sep 21, 2017 7:19am
You can not "just like that" import and sell every Monsanto BS in the EU. That's the problem.
  • #15
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  • Sep 21, 2017 7:20am Sep 21, 2017 7:20am
Quoting StrongOnStab
http://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2017/07/07/world-economic-outlook-update-july-2017 {image}
Good to see you SOS!
  • #17
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:31am Sep 21, 2017 8:31am
Lack of Sovereignty. Crock of shit!!
“When we negotiated the outcome of the justice and home affairs… brief in Europe, [Theresa May] negotiated us out of 100 out of 135 aspects of the treaty.”
David Davis, 1 June 2017

The Coalition government did opt out of around 130 previously enacted EU security and criminal justice laws, 35 of which it subsequently opted back into. Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time, but the right to opt out of the measures was negotiated under a previous government.

The Treaty of Lisbon came into force in 2009 and intended to reform the European Union following its enlargement from 15 to 27 member countries. One element of the Treaty was that security and justice measures would no longer require the unanimous agreement of member countries.

But at the time the UK Labour government, along with Ireland, negotiated the ability to opt out of future security and justice laws on a case-by-case basis. In addition, they also negotiated the ability to opt out of all 130 pre-Lisbon security and justice laws, with the provision that they could opt back into some of them.

In July 2013 the Coalition government notified the EU that it would make use of the block opt-out option. It also decided to opt back into 35 measures that it felt remained in the national interest including, for example, the European Arrest Warrant.

Ignore the title read the article.
https://fullfact.org/europe/theresa-mays-eu-negotiating-experience/
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #18
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:36am Sep 21, 2017 8:36am
Quoting cliffedwards
Hidden
I believe you actually mean, ad hominem. Your hypocrisy is outstanding.
You,more than anyone, denigrate others views on here with personal insults. I have received them from you.
Voters may have been influenced by political views,the consequence was Brexit, which has economic ramifications,therefore to refer to them is absolutely legitimate.Indeed it would be naive in the extreme, not to do so. You should cease with your bullying tactics of censorship, in the disingenuous guise of acting as some poor abused victim
  • #19
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  • Edited 9:57am Sep 21, 2017 8:44am | Edited 9:57am
Quoting cliffedwards
Hidden

The 'keep woofing' part was directed at a particular user that isn't you and who was quite openly deriding the intelligence of others (you have form on this too), a post which you liked. The 'woof' should be a dead give away, I thought the intelligent Remainers would have figured that out.


The fact that you are lying about being 'Exit agnostic' is not a personal attack, it is a matter of record. It is beyond any reasonable doubt from reading your post history that you are passionately AGAINST Brexit. You can't even be honest about it! For you to claim otherwise in spite of your post history is to ask the rest of us to suspend objective reality because you take personal offence to a FACT.


You care so much about ensuring this forums only sticks to 'ECONOMIC developments' that you post images of questionable relevance to economic issues, about who, and why people voted the way they do in Brexit:
1. https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...88#post9082288
2. https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...77#post9101977
3. https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...24#post8969624


You care SO much about ensuring this forums only sticks to 'ECONOMIC developments' that you submit stories about party politics and sovereignty issues:
1. https://www.forexfactory.com/news.php?do=news&id=611226
2. https://www.forexfactory.com/news.php?do=news&id=614186
3. https://www.forexfactory.com/news.php?do=news&id=650437


You care SO MUCH about ensuring this forums only sticks to 'ECONOMIC developments' that you argue about the scientific evidence of global warming, US politics, and migration:
1. https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...3#post10271151
2. https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...2#post10240356
3. https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...8#post10128590


...You care SOO MUCH that you don't even abide by the rules you criticise others of breaching.
Physician heal thyself!
  • #20
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:46am Sep 21, 2017 8:46am
lol,
I thought that was a great post

Quoting cliffedwards
Hidden
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #21
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:49am Sep 21, 2017 8:49am
Out of curiosity, who is britain going to trade with that it does not already do so? How will Britain become this Great Trading nation, what does it have to offer over and above what it currently manufactures?
Data is from 2015 but it suffices to present in a simple form that any Brexiter (who tend to only look at pictures anyway) is likely to understand.
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
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Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #22
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:55am Sep 21, 2017 8:55am
Quoting verv
{quote} The 'keep woofing' part was directed at a particular user that isn't you and who was quite openly deriding the intelligence of others (you have form with this also). The 'woof' should be a dead give away, I thought the intelligent Remainers would have figured that out. The fact that you are lying about being 'Exit agnostic' is not a personal attack, it is a matter of record. It is beyond any reasonable doubt from reading your post history that you are passionately AGAINST Brexit. You can't even be honest about it! For you to claim otherwise...
Very well put Verv, I like it! I forgot to mention on my post, Cliffs infantile insulting cartoons, which I have received, for having the audacity to disagree with his bias views.
  • #23
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:56am Sep 21, 2017 8:56am
we like pictures because most of us can not read
my mum reads and types for me
shes part of my comprehensive team being older is a leaver too
US looks good for growth to me mum said that's the blue one

Donald likes Mrs T ,word on the wires ...

Quoting dee50
Out of curiosity, who is britain going to trade with that it does not already do so? How will Britain become this Great Trading nation, what does it have to offer over and above what it currently manufactures? Data is from 2015 but it suffices to present in a simple form that any Brexiter (who tend to only look at pictures anyway) is likely to understand. {image} {image}
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #24
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:59am Sep 21, 2017 8:59am
Quoting dee50
Out of curiosity, who is britain going to trade with that it does not already do so? How will Britain become this Great Trading nation, what does it have to offer over and above what it currently manufactures? Data is from 2015 but it suffices to present in a simple form that any Brexiter (who tend to only look at pictures anyway) is likely to understand. {image} {image}
Are you suggesting that all that purple trade will cease once Britain decides to leave the EU?
  • #25
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  • Sep 21, 2017 8:59am Sep 21, 2017 8:59am
Quoting Bones
we like pictures because most of us can not read my mum reads and types for me shes part of my comprehensive team being older is a leaver too US looks good for growth to me mum said that's the blue one {quote}
May I borrow your mum Bones? She sounds great. I hope in saying that,it was no too political for Cliff.
  • #26
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  • Sep 21, 2017 9:00am Sep 21, 2017 9:00am
Quoting Wayne2401
{quote} Very well put Verv, I like it! I forgot to mention on my post, Cliffs infantile insulting cartoons, which I have received, for having the audacity to disagree with his bias views.

How dare you claim that Cliff can be biased, insulting and post off topic.
It is a personally insulting to Cliff to tell him these factual things.
*Insert some sob story as a pathetic way to direct CoC against members whose opinions you don't like*
  • #27
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  • Sep 21, 2017 9:03am Sep 21, 2017 9:03am
britain will leave the EU, YAY go britain. When will we actually go? it seems as if some people have actually given this some thought and have realized the scale of the problem whilst others think it is just requires a walk thru the park to the other side and every thing will continue as before. Wakey Wakey.

"Nothing simple about UK regaining WTO status post-Brexit"
https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit

How many Trade Agreements do we need to negotiate? Shit, I thought we would just stick a sign in the window saying "We are open for Business" and there would be a crowd of countries just waiting to come thru the door.

This is a list of the EUs Trade agreements and their various stages, just to give an idea of what faces Britain, what strikes me about these is how long they have taken or in some cases are still taking. So obviously the Brexiteers think that they will do better and negotiate them over night, judging by some comments.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/negotiations-and-agreements/#_in-place
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #28
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  • Sep 21, 2017 9:11am Sep 21, 2017 9:11am
Quoting dee50
Lack of Sovereignty. Crock of shit!! “When we negotiated the outcome of the justice and home affairs… brief in Europe, [Theresa May] negotiated us out of 100 out of 135 aspects of the treaty.” David Davis, 1 June 2017 The Coalition government did opt out of around 130 previously enacted EU security and criminal justice laws, 35 of which it subsequently opted back into. Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time, but the right to opt out of the measures was negotiated under a previous government. The Treaty of Lisbon came into force in 2009 and intended...

I want to control immigration by restricting the freedom of movement... can I do that in the EU?

I want to regulate and control labour laws... can I do all of that in the EU?

I want to forge new trade deals with other countries... can I do that in the EU?

Simple questions, with a simple answers, with an obvious impact on the sovereignty debate.

Don't sit there pretending the entire sovereignty issue is a 'crock of shit' whilst ignoring very obvious issues.
  • #29
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  • Sep 21, 2017 9:11am Sep 21, 2017 9:11am
Im pleased to see you link us up ,
but feel your biased badly due to personal circumstances

Quoting dee50
britain will leave the EU, YAY go britain. When will we actually go? it seems as if some people have actually given this some thought and have realized the scale of the problem whilst others think it is just requires a walk thru the park to the other side and every thing will continue as before. Wakey Wakey. "Nothing simple about UK regaining WTO status post-Brexit" https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit How many Trade Agreements do we need to negotiate? Shit, I thought we would just stick...
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #31
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  • Sep 21, 2017 9:36am Sep 21, 2017 9:36am
Quoting jen101
{quote} Barkie, I can't figure out if you are on a wind up or are genuinely really stupid.
"genuinely really stupid" about sums it up
  • #32
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  • Edited 10:25am Sep 21, 2017 9:38am | Edited 10:25am
Quoting cliffedwards
Hidden

You told me off above and said that talking about sovereignty, migration, and others things related to the decisions people made in the Brexit referendum was a breach forum rules. Those links I posted, specifically with the pictures, are of YOU doing.... the same exact frigging thing.


You talk about personal attacks and yet you liked Barkies original post, now in receipt of a code of conduct. So whilst you were very publicly crying out against 'personal attacks' you literally 'liked it' when Barkie's personal attack was directed in a manner which you approved.


You claim that you have never 'indulged in ad hominum abuse'.... but what's this????:
"TH was a loud mouth idiot. Devaux is equally toxic and a very plausible kettle of fish until you analyse his MO."
https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...39#post9388881 ....and this: "I would think that Ireland is well rid of you." https://www.forexfactory.com/news.ph...72#post9497304
.... it's you literally indulged in ad hominum abuse.


How about you stop being such a bloody hypocrite.
  • #33
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  • Sep 21, 2017 9:41am Sep 21, 2017 9:41am
the referendum is the ultimate mandate
inaccuracy both sides listen to fellow citizens when interviewed they made their own mind up
they don't believe politicians at all or bias economic forecasts ,lots of damage done
the bus wasn't a lie , take back control is actually right though id agree misleading without deeper scrutiny
but punishment budget that was
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #34
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  • Sep 21, 2017 10:00am Sep 21, 2017 10:00am
I think that budget threat by Osborne was utterly unforgivable. "Do what we tell you or I will punish you severely" was in my opinion enough to make the man (and his buddy Cameron) unfit for public office and now he snipes from the wings using that Editorship as a way of spreading his poisonous vendetta.

The entire remain campaign was based on trying to scare people into doing what they wanted and when it wasn't working so well they upped the ante to include threats. - No wonder so very many people didn't trust a word they said...
  • #35
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  • Sep 21, 2017 10:03am Sep 21, 2017 10:03am
Quoting verv
Remainers need to stop telling themselves that Brexiteers are illogical or unintelligent. The Brexit referendum was judged on individual values that individuals ranked in order of importance. This is both a subjective choice, and one influenced by personal circumstance. Some people value the economy the most, others sovereignty, others control of migration, other the preservation of their culture. The result is that each person is voting according to their own preferences which almost certainly aligns with their own self interest and that may result...
This is a piece by nbfx which give a broader Brexit view point
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  • #36
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  • Sep 21, 2017 10:30am Sep 21, 2017 10:30am
Quoting dee50
Lack of Sovereignty. Crock of shit!! “When we negotiated the outcome of the justice and home affairs… brief in Europe, [Theresa May] negotiated us out of 100 out of 135 aspects of the treaty.†David Davis, 1 June 2017 The Coalition government did opt out of around 130 previously enacted EU security and criminal justice laws, 35 of which it subsequently opted back into. Theresa May was Home Secretary at the time, but the right to opt out of the measures was negotiated under a previous government. The Treaty of Lisbon came into force in 2009...
When EU law has supremacy over UK law, that is a loss of sovereignty
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  • #37
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  • Sep 21, 2017 10:57am Sep 21, 2017 10:57am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} This is a piece by nbfx which give a broader Brexit view point {image}
Most of that post is nonsensical and biased against the EEC. It just underlines the Farage/Johnson bullshit fear rhetoric.
Gone to a better place
  • #38
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:07am Sep 21, 2017 11:07am
Quoting smikester
{quote} Most of that post is nonsensical and biased against the EEC. It just underlines the Farage/Johnson bullshit fear rhetoric.
It makes perfect sense and of course it's anti-EU, the EU is the problem
  • #39
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:10am Sep 21, 2017 11:10am
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} It makes perfect sense and of course it's anti-EU, the EU is the problem
Dim Brexiters are the problem now. Just go on repeating yourself Devauxt. Do you really believe that our borders will be more secure against terrorists? Most of our terrorists are home grown. So stop repeating your nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gowrhfT0c
Gone to a better place
  • #40
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:14am Sep 21, 2017 11:14am
Quoting smikester
{quote} Dim Brexiters are the problem now. Just go on repeating yourself Devauxt. Do you really believe that our borders will be more secure against terrorists? Most of our terrorists are home grown. So stop repeating your nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gowrhfT0c
Yes I do think that Brexit will make UK borders more secure and it will also allow the UK to eject foreign terrorists and criminals without reference to the ECJ
  • #41
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:26am Sep 21, 2017 11:26am
Quoting smikester
{quote} Dim Brexiters are the problem now. Just go on repeating yourself Devauxt. Do you really believe that our borders will be more secure against terrorists? Most of our terrorists are home grown. So stop repeating your nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gowrhfT0c
that video is just unfunny nonsense (to add insult to injury one one EU negotiator said this week that Britain has no understanding of key Brexit issues) really are we just going to pretend a EU negotiator is impartial has anyone ever found this video to be even slightly amusing??? did you find that video funny or informative???
  • #42
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:33am Sep 21, 2017 11:33am
Quoting smikester
{quote} Most of that post is nonsensical and biased against the EEC. It just underlines the Farage/Johnson bullshit fear rhetoric.
Correct.. but can you HEAR THE SILENCE when anyone advocating Single Market/Customs Union as part of the EU exit package... is asked about a viable economic strategy Post-Brexit.
"................................................................................................................."
Problem is it doesnt Google very well..
Whos got the plan? Boris?? Gove? Fox??
What IS the Plan?

" " Silence.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publication/increasingly-apart-post-crisis-growth-trajectories-uk-and-eurozone?gclid=CKbcma3MttYCFQML0wodtF8BGg
The Royal Institute for International Affairs.
  • #43
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:38am Sep 21, 2017 11:38am
Quoting Ross88
{quote} that video is just unfunny nonsense (to add insult to injury one one EU negotiator said this week that Britain has no understanding of key Brexit issues) really are we just going to pretend a EU negotiator is impartial has anyone ever found this video to be even slightly amusing??? did you find that video funny or informative???
Like it or not, we are in your hands now. Boris and Theresa have succeeded in insulting the powers that be. Nigel is spouting his usual guff. Sovereignty? Don't make me laugh. Do you mean the House of Commons, the House of Lords, or the Royal Family? Or maybe Whitehall?

Clearly nobody has a clue. The video, apart from being very funny, is very informative.
Gone to a better place
  • #44
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:41am Sep 21, 2017 11:41am
https://www.planforbritain.gov.uk/12-negotiating-objectives/


Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Correct.. but can you HEAR THE SILENCE when anyone advocating Single Market/Customs Union as part of the EU exit package... is asked about a viable economic strategy Post-Brexit. "................................................................................................................." Problem is it doesnt Google very well.. Whos got the plan? Boris?? Gove? Fox?? What IS the Plan? " " Silence. https://www.chathamhouse.org/publication/increasingly-apart-post-crisis-growth-trajectories-uk-and-eurozone?gclid=CKbcma3MttYCFQML0wodtF8BGg...
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #45
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:41am Sep 21, 2017 11:41am
Quoting cliffedwards
Hidden
2 In NO CASE did I indulge in ad hominum abuse of my fellow members. - You have called me a hamster and told me to go back to my knitting- hypocrisy you also indulge
  • #46
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  • Edited 11:54am Sep 21, 2017 11:43am | Edited 11:54am
Quoting smikester
{quote} Like it or not, we are in your hands now. Boris and Theresa have succeeded in insulting the powers that be. Nigel is spouting his usual guff. Sovereignty? Don't make me laugh. Do you mean the House of Commons, the House of Lords, or the Royal Family? Or maybe Whitehall? Clearly nobody has a clue. The video, apart from being very funny, is very informative.
that video is as funny as watching a puppy drown and as informative as putting my poor old nan in the ring with Anthony Joshua

(this is David Davis negotiation position the guy turns around and bends over and said come on then help yourself and don't bother spitting on it will you) how informative so apparently David Davis likes rough anal sex how very informative and it's also funny because it's true? to be funny a joke should be base in some form of reality in which case if you find this funny how do you know about David Davis personal life??
  • #47
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  • Sep 21, 2017 11:44am Sep 21, 2017 11:44am
Lack of sovereignty. Crock of shit.

How the EU works: EU law and the UK
"Given the doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty in the UK, meaning that there are no limits on what Acts can be passed or removed, it might be possible for Parliament to contradict EU laws. But this would seem incompatible with continued membership of the EU"

"there are important differences between regulations and directives. Regulations become part of national law as soon as they’re passed. EU countries must pass their own laws to put directives into practice."

Working Time Directive, did Parliament put this into British Law OH! wait! this is the one that Brexiters keep referring back to as part of the Sovereignty argument!

The European Communities Act, passed by Parliament in 1972, accepted the supremacy of EU law. That principle has also been endorsed by the UK courts. It used to be called Democracy but I think that term is now used differently. I was old enough to vote back then so I suppose it was partly my fault for voting for the Government so you can blame me for Britain's current perceived lack of sovereignty.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #48
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:44am Sep 21, 2017 11:44am
Quoting Wayne2401
{quote} 2 In NO CASE did I indulge in ad hominum abuse of my fellow members. - You have called me a hamster and told me to go back to my knitting- hypocrisy you also indulge
LOL. Call me a hamster!
Gone to a better place
  • #49
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:46am Sep 21, 2017 11:46am
Quoting Ross88
{quote} that video is as funny as watching a puppy drown and as informative as putting my poor old nan in the ring with Anthony Joshua
About as funny as the "negotiations", then? What a waste of everyone's time.
Gone to a better place
  • #50
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:47am Sep 21, 2017 11:47am
Quoting smikester
{quote} Dim Brexiters are the problem now. Just go on repeating yourself Devauxt. Do you really believe that our borders will be more secure against terrorists? Most of our terrorists are home grown. So stop repeating your nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gowrhfT0c
same is true with france. the best move any gov. can take is identify, supervise , arrest and isolate those islamistic hatress preachers (don´t know if this is the right term). close their mosques, confiscate their money, forbid their clubs and delete their websites.
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #51
  • Quote
  • Edited 12:01pm Sep 21, 2017 11:49am | Edited 12:01pm
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} Yes I do think that Brexit will make UK borders more secure and it will also allow the UK to eject foreign terrorists and criminals without reference to the ECJ
Where do you think the UK borders are? Dover?

There are 11,073 miles (17,820 kms) of British Border. 99.9% of which is not fenced, walled or patrolled regularly. I have heard a rumour, you appear to have heard it too, that following Brexit Donald and Theresa will be in negotiations to allow 10s of thousands of American Rednecks to come over and build a wall thereby Brexit will make UK borders more secure.
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #52
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:52am Sep 21, 2017 11:52am
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Correct.. but can you HEAR THE SILENCE when anyone advocating Single Market/Customs Union as part of the EU exit package... is asked about a viable economic strategy Post-Brexit. "................................................................................................................." Problem is it doesnt Google very well.. Whos got the plan? Boris?? Gove? Fox?? What IS the Plan? " " Silence. https://www.chathamhouse.org/publica...FQML0wodtF8BGg...
Attached Image
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #53
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:57am Sep 21, 2017 11:57am
Quoting smikester
{quote} About as funny as the "negotiations", then? What a waste of everyone's time.
but at the end of my two examples nothing has been achieved but at the end of these negotiations we will have left the EU so i don't think they are a waste of everyone time
  • #54
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:59am Sep 21, 2017 11:59am
should be county of kent ..

Quoting dee50
{quote} Where do you think the UK borders are? Dover?
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #55
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 11:59am Sep 21, 2017 11:59am
Quoting Ross88
{quote} but at the end of my two examples nothing has been achieved but at the end of these negotiations we will have left the EU so i don't think they are a waste of everyone time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=bM2Ql3wOGcU
  • #56
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:01pm Sep 21, 2017 12:01pm
Quoting Bones
https://www.planforbritain.gov.uk/12-negotiating-objectives/ {quote}
"Leaving the EU negotiating objectives" ???????????????

I m looking to read a Viable UK Economic Strategy for a Post-Brexit UK without access to Single Market and Customs Union? Sort of like those already commissioned by UK Government.. that they refuse to release.
Reasonable question?/Request? No?
  • #57
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:07pm Sep 21, 2017 12:07pm
let me ask you whats the economic plan of the EU when they force us to walk away ?

when Greece nearly ...

Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} "Leaving the EU negotiating objectives" ??????????????? I m looking to read a Viable UK Economic Strategy for a Post-Brexit UK without access to Single Market and Customs Union? Sort of like those already commissioned by UK Government.. that they refuse to release. Reasonable question?/Request? No?
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #58
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:15pm Sep 21, 2017 12:15pm
Quoting Wayne2401
{quote} 2 In NO CASE did I indulge in ad hominum abuse of my fellow members. - You have called me a hamster and told me to go back to my knitting- hypocrisy you also indulge
Have not got the balls,integrity or gumption, to admit it, Cliff?
  • #59
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:23pm Sep 21, 2017 12:23pm
won't answer because its a ridiculous ask

Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} "Leaving the EU negotiating objectives" ??????????????? I m looking to read a Viable UK Economic Strategy for a Post-Brexit UK without access to Single Market and Customs Union? Sort of like those already commissioned by UK Government.. that they refuse to release. Reasonable question?/Request? No?
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#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #60
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:26pm Sep 21, 2017 12:26pm
Quoting Bones
let me ask you whats the economic plan of the EU when they force us to walk away ? when Greece nearly ... {quote}
Nah Bones.. Just give me link to the plan..
Not a youtube video.. an Economic plan authored byand endorsed by a seriously internationally reputable body/source properly costed and sequenced.
Is that an unreasonabke request?
The EU development agenda going forward is the subject of innumerable reports, proposals and comment.
But I cant find anything for Post-Brexit UK?
So link me.


Just seen your response....
Quoting Bones
won't answer because its a ridiculous ask
Sure is. Ridiculous. QED.
  • #61
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:29pm Sep 21, 2017 12:29pm
Quoting deltaone
{quote} same is true with france. the best move any gov. can take is identify, supervise , arrest and isolate those islamistic hatress preachers (don´t know if this is the right term). close their mosques, confiscate their money, forbid their clubs and delete their websites.
You can't do that! The European Court of Human Rights would have a field day with all sorts of rights violations issues... Unless of course you leave the Jurisdiction of the ECHR?
  • #62
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:30pm Sep 21, 2017 12:30pm
Quoting Wayne2401
{quote} Have not got the balls,integrity or gumption, to admit it, Cliff?

Hampster????
LINKS Wayne?
  • #63
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:32pm Sep 21, 2017 12:32pm
Cliff the plan is laid out ,not in detail like you want because it depends on negotiations
also affect our position ,I buy that
I already said my reading of it revolves opening up trade which ever way these talks go
why our representatives are busy travelling the world even though EU want that to stop how else can pain be inficted




Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Nah Bones.. Just give me link to the plan.. Not a youtube video.. an Economic plan authored byand endorsed by a seriously internationally reputable body/source properly costed and sequenced. Is that an unreasonabke request? The EU development agenda going forward is the subject of innumerable reports, proposals and comment. But I cant find anything for Post-Brexit UK? So link me. Just seen your response.... {quote} Sure is. Ridiculous. QED.
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #64
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:35pm Sep 21, 2017 12:35pm
Quoting nbfx
{quote} You can't do that! The European Court of Human Rights would have a field day with all sorts of rights violations issues... Unless of course you leave the Jurisdiction of the ECHR?
nonesense. it´s the way it´s practised in germany. i think may said something in the way but up till now, nothing happened. at least i didn´t recognise.
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #65
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:36pm Sep 21, 2017 12:36pm
besides something else looms Eur no doubt
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #66
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:46pm Sep 21, 2017 12:46pm
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Hampster???? LINKS Wayne?
Such a common occurrence and second nature to you, now you cannot even remember your infantile personal insults? Oh Dear,how low you have sunk.
PS- Please save me those repetitive ridiculous little faces you feel the need to add,however badly you spell,mixed with appalling American slang, try to rely upon the English language.
  • #67
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:53pm Sep 21, 2017 12:53pm
The UK has a collection of VERY powerful laws that date back before the First World War. The de facto powers of these laws are a bit more far reaching than the American versions Patriot Act, (and have been since they had terrorism at home for generations longer than the US). In practice, the UK seems to have a better track record of not pushing the de jur power of these laws as far as they can.

Official Secrets Act 1920
Official Secrets Act 1939
Official Secrets Act 1989
Terrorism Act 2000
Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001
Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005
Terrorism Act 2006
Counter-Terrorism Act 2008

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_Act_2006
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Terrorism_Act_2008

You will note that the British Parliament was a bigger hindrance to these Acts than the ECJ or ECHR.
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #68
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:55pm Sep 21, 2017 12:55pm
link me EUs economic plan >UK walk away no deal no money paid your good at asking the impossible now answer one

Quoting cliffedwards
{quote} Nah Bones.. Just give me link to the plan.. Not a youtube video.. an Economic plan authored byand endorsed by a seriously internationally reputable body/source properly costed and sequenced. Is that an unreasonabke request? The EU development agenda going forward is the subject of innumerable reports, proposals and comment. But I cant find anything for Post-Brexit UK? So link me. Just seen your response.... {quote} Sure is. Ridiculous. QED.
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #69
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 12:58pm Sep 21, 2017 12:58pm
wto hits the seller of goods ,we are buying from a few countries it's very simple ,what happens under WTO
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #70
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 1:04pm Sep 21, 2017 1:04pm
Quoting dee50
{quote} Where do you think the UK borders are? Dover? There are 11,073 miles (17,820 kms) of British Border. 99.9% of which is not fenced, walled or patrolled regularly. I have heard a rumour, you appear to have heard it too, that following Brexit Donald and Theresa will be in negotiations to allow 10s of thousands of American Rednecks to come over and build a wall thereby Brexit will make UK borders more secure.
Whilst I in no way believe that UK border control is sufficient, here are a few things you might like to know:-

UK can’t bar anyone in possession of an EU passport or identity card unless they represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to our security. Even if that high threshold is met, the UK has to disclose the reasons to the individual barred, even if that itself could endanger national security. We can’t even bar people from coming in, solely because they have a criminal record, an unexplained trip to Syria, even for murder.

EU countries (including Cyprus) have been undermining border controls and passport checks, with the EU’s own border agency, Frontex, admitting documents are forged on a systematic basis. This shows open, flagrant selling of EU passports. Once people buy these EU passports and with it citizenship of an EU member state, they have the automatic right to come to the UK because of 'free movement'.
  • #71
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 1:07pm Sep 21, 2017 1:07pm
Quoting dee50
The UK has a collection of VERY powerful laws that date back before the First World War. The de facto powers of these laws are a bit more far reaching than the American versions Patriot Act, (and have been since they had terrorism at home for generations longer than the US). In practice, the UK seems to have a better track record of not pushing the de jur power of these laws as far as they can. Official Secrets Act 1920 Official Secrets Act 1939 Official Secrets Act 1989 Terrorism Act 2000 Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 Prevention of...
ECJ and ECHR are a hindrance to UK national security https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/the-european-court-of-justices-thirst-for-ever-more-power/
  • #72
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 1:08pm Sep 21, 2017 1:08pm
Previous research from Civitas1 has revealed that post-Brexit, in the event of there being no trade treaty, UK exports to the EU-27 could expect to suffer tariff costs in the region of £5.2 billion, but the corresponding exports from the EU-27 to the UK would face costs in the region of £12.9 billion. These figures were advanced as a strong argument that it is in the best interests of the EU-27 to agree a trade treaty to permit tariff-free access to their markets to the UK
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #73
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 1:34pm Sep 21, 2017 1:34pm
Quoting Devauxt
{quote} ECJ and ECHR are a hindrance to UK national security https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/...er-more-power/
OH very good, well done sir.

The case was brought by Privacy International a UK registered charity, they must have voted Remain.
Interestingly look by whom they are funded, amongst others, how ironic!
Privacy International has been funded and supported by a variety of foundations, academic establishments, and non-government organisations, including the Adessium Foundation, the Open Society Foundations, the International Research Development Centre, the European Parliament, the European Commission, the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust, the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation, the University of Toronto's Canada Centre for Global Security Studies in the Munk School of Global Affairs, the American Civil Liberties Union, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, The Fund for Constitutional Government, the Stern Foundation, the Privacy Foundation, the German Marshall Fund, the University of New South Wales, the German Permanent Mission to the UN, the Oak Foundation, the Renewable Freedom Foundation, the Omidyar Network, the Roughley Charitable Trust, the Swedish International Development Agency, and the Street Foundation.[11] It also receives a small amount of finance via contributions.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_International
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #74
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 1:43pm Sep 21, 2017 1:43pm
it´s sad that no one gets the real problem:

in 2050, world population will be approx. 10 billions.
the share of the western democratic population will shrink.
only united we have a chance to hold up freedom, individual rights and prosperity. united we stand - devided we fall.
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #75
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 1:50pm Sep 21, 2017 1:50pm
Quoting Bones
Previous research from Civitas1 has revealed that post-Brexit, in the event of there being no trade treaty, UK exports to the EU-27 could expect to suffer tariff costs in the region of £5.2 billion, but the corresponding exports from the EU-27 to the UK would face costs in the region of £12.9 billion. These figures were advanced as a strong argument that it is in the best interests of the EU-27 to agree a trade treaty to permit tariff-free access to their markets to the UK
At last a Brexiteer is actually posting some facts, thank you bones.
BTW, which Organisation are you referring to
https://www.civitaslearning.com/
https://www.civitas.org/
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/members/Civitas1
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #76
  • Quote
  • Edited 2:02pm Sep 21, 2017 1:52pm | Edited 2:02pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Dark-Web.html
http://www.vocativ.com/241487/fake-p...-black-market/

Oh good heavens.. there seems to be a market in forged IRISH, UK, US, Swiss, Andorran.. etc etc..
illegal migrants going to swamp us all ... LoL

Meanwhile in the Forex world we pulled a neat little quick PB scalp off Tuesdays Res at 950ish on E$.
  • #77
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 2:01pm Sep 21, 2017 2:01pm
Quoting deltaone
it´s sad that no one gets the real problem: in 2050, world population will be approx. 10 billions. the share of the western democratic population will shrink. only united we have a chance to hold up freedom, individual rights and prosperity. united we stand - devided we fall.
Being anti-EU is being pro-democracy, pro cooperation with other nations, pro the rule of UK law, pro prosperity, pro trade with all nations, pro European sovereign nations and pro European cultures, pro sercurity and anti-protectionist
  • #78
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 2:02pm Sep 21, 2017 2:02pm
Quoting dee50
{quote} At last a Brexiteer is actually posting some facts, thank you bones. BTW, which Organisation are you referring to https://www.civitaslearning.com/ https://www.civitas.org/ https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/members/Civitas1
agreed, he´s the one who has arguments worth a discussion. + he´s a trader, not a propaganda-poster.
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #79
  • Quote
  • Edited 3:48pm Sep 21, 2017 3:31pm | Edited 3:48pm
its a deep paper covering a lot of ground ,
go to conclusion
or read it here

http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/fi...toftariffs.pdf
Conclusion
Hitherto, discussion of the UK’s departure from the EU has focussed upon the risks of ‘Hard Brexit’ and the need to soften this by avoiding costs for business such as tariffs being levied upon exports to the EU-27.
Tariffs are not the only costs which businesses will incur, and they would not be the only obstacles which exporters would face after Brexit. What this paper, and the underlying study from which it is derived, indicate is that these tariff costs can be managed. In an ideal world, British exporters would not have to suffer them, but it is possible to mitigate their impact through other measures which are justifiable in their own right. It makes sense to remove a self-inflicted wound like the carbon price floor, which is damaging British competitiveness and low-income households. It makes sense to provide greater tax incentives for research and development. A case can be made for regional aid given the imbalances in economic performance and employment across the UK as a whole.
Hence, the real question is not ‘how soft a Brexit can we achieve?’ but rather ‘how hard a negotiation do we wish to drive with the EU?’ The balance of negotiating strengths is far more favourable to the UK. If the EU-27 wish to impose a self-inflicted wound by levying tariffs on British exports, Britain has little to fear.
What the discussion of these mitigation measures also highlights is that each one is better considered not as a stop-gap response to an immediate problem, but as part of a co-ordinated long-term industrial strategy to improve British competitiveness for a global market. That is also the best means of addressing another issue highlighted in this paper: the difficulty in matching up ‘winners’ and ‘losers’ from the tariffs and the mitigation measures. Such a strategy would have to be based on a horizontal, economy-wide approach. It would not represent a return to the 1970s-style attitude of ‘picking winners’, if only because such an overt targeting of benefits would eventually fall foul of the modern WTO rules.
Perhaps, then, the real conclusion of this paper is that the UK should stop obsessing about the EU and worrying about how they will react. We should get on with the task of managing our own affairs in our own interests, and leave the EU to worry about their own problems. That is the only way to make a success of Brexit. The EU-27 aren’t going to spend much time trying to help us.
What does ‘Brexit’ mean? It means having nobody else to blame.





Quoting dee50
{quote} At last a Brexiteer is actually posting some facts, thank you bones. BTW, which Organisation are you referring to https://www.civitaslearning.com/ https://www.civitas.org/ https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/members/Civitas1
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#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #80
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 4:00pm Sep 21, 2017 4:00pm
D on this front we are united
there's an appetite to maintain strong links reflected in Mays words often
mass migration has been the biggest hurdle it doesn't matter if it's ok for other countries,
no movement stance only re-enforced the negative feeling
it was big enough to bring us to this point

I'm nervous on her speech tomorrow but if it is around 20 it will be the best offer she can politically give
She will reinforce we want close ties


Quoting deltaone
it´s sad that no one gets the real problem: in 2050, world population will be approx. 10 billions. the share of the western democratic population will shrink. only united we have a chance to hold up freedom, individual rights and prosperity. united we stand - devided we fall.
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #81
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 4:09pm Sep 21, 2017 4:09pm
Quoting Bones
D on this front we are united there's an appetite to maintain strong links reflected in Mays words often mass migration has been the biggest hurdle it doesn't matter if it's ok for other countries, no movement stance only re-enforced the negative feeling it was big enough to bring us to this point {quote}
we europeans... let´s hope for a bright future is all i can say.
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #82
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 4:42pm Sep 21, 2017 4:42pm
Quoting Bones
D on this front we are united there's an appetite to maintain strong links reflected in Mays words often mass migration has been the biggest hurdle it doesn't matter if it's ok for other countries, no movement stance only re-enforced the negative feeling it was big enough to bring us to this point I'm nervous on her speech tomorrow but if it is around 20 it will be the best offer she can politically give She will reinforce we want close ties {quote}
we differ on migration, that´s obvious. inner-european migration can´t be a problem to me, it´s continental european history. and to make our dispute on this clear: as long as one pays taxes, obey to the law and can secure it´s own/family live here, i have no problem with migration.

doesn´t matter where you come from or the god you obey. the only thing that matters is you work hard and believe in yourself. to say it with with the greatest of all prussians:

"Jeder soll nach seiner Facon selig werden!" ("each must live as he sees fit.") Friedrich II
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #83
  • Quote
  • Edited 7:00pm Sep 21, 2017 5:24pm | Edited 7:00pm
yes I see that,
there are many fronts to the view, migration is to England -south in the main
there is a problem housing /services, I'm not entering an argument to say I'm wrong or the government should build new cities on the green belts
also large numbers= congregate /segregate - take some London areas
there's fear over culture
then there's a feeling wages are depressed for that very reason
there are other reasons but this one would have leavers in losing camp
I'm not religious one bit,
live and let live as long as you don't encroach my belief equal to yours

I feel racism is weighted more the other way come to Uk if you really want to be British and respect existing values...
surely I describe the bare minimum requirement any for any country




Quoting deltaone
{quote} we differ on migration, that´s obvious. inner-european migration can´t be a problem to me, it´s continental european history. and to make our dispute on this clear: as long as one pays taxes, obey to the law and can secure it´s own/family live here, i have no problem with migration. doesn´t matter where you come from or the god you obey. the only thing that matters is you work hard and believe in yourself. to say it with with the greatest of all prussians: "Jeder soll nach seiner Facon selig werden!" ("each must live as he...
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #84
  • Quote
  • Sep 21, 2017 6:49pm Sep 21, 2017 6:49pm
Quoting cliffedwards
{quote}
Im reminded of the addage.. "If you dont know where you are going..any road will get you there.."
I forone have no idea at a practical economic level where we are going here.
A bend in the road is not the end of the road unless you fail to make the turn. We are leaving get over it. Britain will not go where the path may lead, instead it will go where there is no path and blaze a trail. Where Britain leads others will follow as they see our success. Will there be bumps in the road? Yes for sure. Will it be worth it absolutely.
My Inner World Creates My Outer World...
  • #85
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 4:27am Sep 22, 2017 4:27am
What time is Theresa May s speech, please? Thank you
  • #86
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 4:52am Sep 22, 2017 4:52am
out of nowhere, cliffedwards membership is revoked?
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #87
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 6:03am Sep 22, 2017 6:03am
Bones.

Many thanks for the link, it has taken a couple of hours to read a couple of things strike me.

"The fortunate cash-flow consequence for HM Treasury is not something which suddenly falls
from the sky out of a helicopter, or is found in a crock at the end of a rainbow. If government
finds itself in surplus funds, that resource has been provided by the purchases of imports, i.e.,
ultimately, by UK consumers. Just as with any individual exporter affected by tariffs, there is no
automatic netting-off between the cash costs that consumers will suffer and benefits provided
to someone else. Since they will be subsidising this exercise to the tune of £12.9 billion, at
some point UK consumers might not unreasonably ask when and how someone is going to
‘compensate’ them."

€12.9 billion = approx €195 extra cost per person in the UK
€5.2 billion = approx €10 extra cost per person in the EU

"A pro-Brexit argument which was aired occasionally during the referendum campaign is the
possibility of substitution: that UK exporters may lose sales, but so will their EU competitors,
and this creates space to make good losses through increased domestic sales (and judging by
the anticipated tariff costs for both sides, previous Civitas research suggests that UK businesses
will have more ‘space’ to exploit). That may be so, although it begs the question that, if true, we
might as well leave all ‘compensation’ to market adjustments of this kind."

However.

"Whether desirable or not, this still ignores the problem that winnings and losses are very unlikely
to match up and net off for every UK business. It also ignores the fact that often the reason UK
consumers buy EU-27 goods in the first place is because there is no local alternative. By
definition, there is no UK producer of French champagne. Your daughter – perhaps more
importantly, her prospective mother-in-law – is unlikely to be impressed to learn that only
fermented fizzy apple juice from Hereford will be served at the wedding."

"Mitigation of the immediate trade costs of Brexit, then, raises wider political issues which go
beyond the scope of this paper. A difficult balance must be struck between the short-term
political imperative to reassure UK business in the event of anything other than a very ‘soft’
Brexit, and the longer-run interests of the tax-paying consumer. Ultimately, no mitigation
programme can be implemented until those questions are addressed."

And herein lies the problem.
If Civitas were to put themselves forward to run the country and to use this document as a template I would vote for them immediately as much of what they propose is logical and makes perfect economic sense.
Many documents like this have been published over the past decades but little of it has ever reached Political Enactment, these visions of how to achieve a stable environment for the people and business require a foresight much greater than most politicians are prepared to have, their foresight being limited to their projected term in office and of course Party Politics and cross party arguing.
Cut your Losers short and let your Winners run.
  • #88
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 6:13am Sep 22, 2017 6:13am
strange maybe the modes figured out he's in Basingstoke

Quoting deltaone
out of nowhere, cliffedwards membership is revoked?
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #89
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 6:19am Sep 22, 2017 6:19am
Quoting Bones
strange maybe the modes figured out he's in Basingstoke {quote}
Yes, I think he's a fraud. Cliff the righteous trader.
  • #90
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 6:26am Sep 22, 2017 6:26am
Quoting Bones
strange maybe the modes figured out he's in Basingstoke {quote}
context? googled basingstoke, can´t get it.
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #91
  • Quote
  • Edited 7:03am Sep 22, 2017 6:27am | Edited 7:03am
Hi D thanks for your thoughts I appreciate another view
With regard to the breakdown you can not divide like that
the actual cost per head EU side should be weighted to the EU countries we trade with
Germany and Netherlands suck up over third of the tariff
add France ,Spain,Italy,Belgium, and Ireland it amounts to over 3 quarters

over 3 quarters of trade EU>UK between 7 countries that also have to carry the loss of UK contributor in the main and keep spending the same

Quoting dee50
Bones. Many thanks for the link, it has taken a couple of hours to read a couple of things strike me. "The fortunate cash-flow consequence for HM Treasury is not something which suddenly falls from the sky out of a helicopter, or is found in a crock at the end of a rainbow. If government finds itself in surplus funds, that resource has been provided by the purchases of imports, i.e., ultimately, by UK consumers. Just as with any individual exporter affected by tariffs, there is no automatic netting-off between the cash costs that consumers...
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #92
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 6:30am Sep 22, 2017 6:30am
Basingstoke is the largest town in Hampshire. It is situated in south central England, and lies across a valley at the source of the River Loddon.

Quoting deltaone
{quote} context? googled basingstoke, can´t get it.
#Say something verifiable by subsequent events
  • #93
  • Quote
  • Sep 22, 2017 6:32am Sep 22, 2017 6:32am
I should have said slough

Ricky Gervais Croon for David Brent's Hometown 'Slough'

Quoting jen101
{quote} Yes, I think he's a fraud. Cliff the righteous trader.
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  • #94
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  • Sep 22, 2017 6:33am Sep 22, 2017 6:33am
Quoting deltaone
{quote} context? googled basingstoke, can´t get it.
  • #95
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:07am Sep 22, 2017 7:07am
sorry you have to enter the discussion who pays the tariff ,
I can say its not just the consumer at all,
also there's deadweight
associated with the tariff

Quoting dee50
Bones. Many thanks for the link, it has taken a couple of hours to read a couple of things strike me. "The fortunate cash-flow consequence for HM Treasury is not something which suddenly falls from the sky out of a helicopter, or is found in a crock at the end of a rainbow. If government finds itself in surplus funds, that resource has been provided by the purchases of imports, i.e., ultimately, by UK consumers. Just as with any individual exporter affected by tariffs, there is no automatic netting-off between the cash costs that consumers...
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  • #96
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:10am Sep 22, 2017 7:10am
Quoting Bones
Basingstoke is the largest town in Hampshire. It is situated in south central England, and lies across a valley at the source of the River Loddon. {quote}

thx, that´s what i´ve found. seems to be an in-joke. anyhow...
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #97
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:24am Sep 22, 2017 7:24am
I shouldn't say this joke on a day like today ,
maybe he was caught trying to sell his short GBP/USD portfolio he carried all year


Quoting deltaone
{quote} thx, that´s what i´ve found. seems to be an in-joke. anyhow...
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  • #98
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:24am Sep 22, 2017 7:24am
Basingstoke was also used in Gilbert and Sullivan's comic opera 'Ruddigore' as a code word between the Bad Baron and his wife the Mad Baroness to remind each other to live respectably and boringly within the society of the time...
  • #99
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:26am Sep 22, 2017 7:26am
yeaah, it seems to be really a joke Here,... to kill cliffedwards - one of the oldest members (since 2006)
Quoting deltaone
{quote} thx, that´s what i´ve found. seems to be an in-joke. anyhow...
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  • #100
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:32am Sep 22, 2017 7:32am
Quoting StrongOnStab
yeaah, it seems to be really a joke Here,... to kill cliffedwards - one of the oldest members (since 2006) {quote} {image}
Maybe he will reincarnate as a prize marrow.
  • #101
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:38am Sep 22, 2017 7:38am
Quoting StrongOnStab
yeaah, it seems to be really a joke Here,... to kill cliffedwards - one of the oldest members (since 2006) {quote} {image}
You make it sound like a bad thing that a bully who stomped around seeking to use all manner of tactics to impose his view and belittle others in the process has gone?
  • #102
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:39am Sep 22, 2017 7:39am
Quoting jen101
{quote} Maybe he will reincarnate as a prize marrow.
Ouch
  • #103
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  • Edited 7:50am Sep 22, 2017 7:40am | Edited 7:50am
Cliff laughed my 101
but I already thought it before looking on paper


Quoting Bones
sorry you have to enter the discussion who pays the tariff , I can say its not just the consumer at all, also there's deadweight associated with the tariff {quote}
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  • #104
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  • Sep 22, 2017 7:41am Sep 22, 2017 7:41am
Quoting nbfx
{quote} You make it sound like a bad thing that a bully who stomped around seeking to use all manner of tactics to impose his view and belittle others in the process has gone?
You know that the truth is not normally welcome in here, but it so nice to hear it
  • #105
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  • Sep 22, 2017 8:09am Sep 22, 2017 8:09am
Anyone know what time this is due to be. Bizarre the lack of info given the possible impact
Where price is now, it has been before, and will be again.
  • #106
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  • Sep 22, 2017 8:49am Sep 22, 2017 8:49am
Quoting jen101
{quote} Maybe he will reincarnate as a prize marrow.
Any reincarnation,would be no prize!
  • #107
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  • Sep 22, 2017 9:18am Sep 22, 2017 9:18am
Quoting Jenx
Anyone know what time this is due to be. Bizarre the lack of info given the possible impact
I have looked every where, cannot find it, which is really annoying. Cliff would know, as he knew everything.Perhaps Theresa May has cancelled it out of respect for him.
  • #108
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  • Sep 22, 2017 12:12pm Sep 22, 2017 12:12pm
Quoting dee50
Out of curiosity, who is britain going to trade with that it does not already do so? How will Britain become this Great Trading nation, what does it have to offer over and above what it currently manufactures? Data is from 2015 but it suffices to present in a simple form that any Brexiter (who tend to only look at pictures anyway) is likely to understand. {image} {image}

First thing , that its not what "Britan" import or export , its what UK based companies import and export, you should keep in mind, Britan with no deal means majority of the Global business will also move out from Britan, so import , and export will differ also .

So please check out how many of those companies that export stuff the most are actually national businesses and how many of them will just shift their offices to where is more convenient .
  • #109
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  • Sep 22, 2017 12:21pm Sep 22, 2017 12:21pm
that's right ,you are british ,you have a business in the uk and then just because we left you go ?
negative nanny outlook

tell me this no EU trade deal US do companies go and move home or most other countries



Quoting stryjek
{quote} First thing , that its not what "Britan" import or export , its what UK based companies import and export, you should keep in mind, Britan with no deal means majority of the Global business will also move out from Britan, so import , and export will differ also . So please check out how many of those companies that export stuff the most are actually national businesses and how many of them will just shift their offices to where is more convenient .
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  • #110
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  • Sep 23, 2017 9:08am Sep 23, 2017 9:08am
Quoting nbfx
Basingstoke was also used in Gilbert and Sullivan's comic opera 'Ruddigore' as a code word between the Bad Baron and his wife the Mad Baroness to remind each other to live respectably and boringly within the society of the time...
thank you for your explanation.
fortis fortuna adiuvat
  • #111
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  • Sep 23, 2017 10:11am Sep 23, 2017 10:11am
Quoting Bones
that's right ,you are british ,you have a business in the uk and then just because we left you go ? negative nanny outlook tell me this no EU trade deal US do companies go and move home or most other countries {quote}
If you compare the ratio of small - medium - corporate business GDP in uk
small and medium makes less than 10% and the reminding 90% .
So yes if you are British and have the small business you will be likely to stay in UK
if you are corporate global business you will go where the business is better.

https://cdn.static-economist.com/sit...416_BRC081.png

UK was a gate to Europe to many global businesses as a part of the government business plan for the last decades. Middle class relay on global business . Oil industry is going down that is also not helping , IT and automation growing but there is not helping also .

The only winner here is China as they are going right direction for the last 20 years.
  • #112
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  • Edited 12:32pm Sep 23, 2017 11:59am | Edited 12:32pm
lol link where it says
"small and medium makes less than 10% and the reminding 90%"

Your talking about entire infrastructures you think there move- tell me why?

Corporation tax uk easy wipes any tariff ,
you don't need to be a member to carry on trading with Europe what precisely is the problem ?

It's uncertainty revolving around Brexit that makes it so bad,
UK is no 1 financial centre in the world ,I'm talking this year other day...% went up
that will stay in any event due to many reasons

Monday 28 August 2017 9:32pmNissan is set to bump up production at its UK factory by 20 per cent and source more car parts from within the country as it prepares for Brexit.
The Japanese carmaker will increase the production at its Sunderland plant to 600,000 cars per year, according to the Nikkei Asian Review.

It will also aim to source 80 per cent of its parts from the UK; it currently brings in 40 per cent of its components from UK manufacturers.


Quoting stryjek
{quote} If you compare the ratio of small - medium - corporate business GDP in uk small and medium makes less than 10% and the reminding 90% . So yes if you are British and have the small business you will be likely to stay in UK if you are corporate global business you will go where the business is better. {image} UK was a gate to Europe to many global businesses as a part of the government business plan for the last decades. Middle class relay on global business . Oil industry is going down that is also not helping , IT and automation growing...
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  • #113
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  • Sep 23, 2017 12:23pm Sep 23, 2017 12:23pm
sounds wrong
is wrong


• In 2016, there were 5.5 million businesses in the UK.
• Over 99% of businesses are Small or Medium Sized businesses – employing 0-249 people
• 5.3 million (96%) businesses were micro-businesses – employing 0-9 people. Micro-businesses accounted for 32% of employment and 19% of turnover.

Since 2000, the number of businesses in the UK has increased each year, by 3% on average. In 2016, there were 2.0 million more businesses than in 2000, an increase of 59% over the whole period.

Although the vast majority of businesses in the UK employ fewer than 10 people, this sort of business only accounts for 32% of employment and 19% of turnover.
Large businesses, with more than 250 employees, accounted for 0.1% of businesses but 40% of employment and 53% of turnover, as the following chart shows.

*source house of commons library
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  • #114
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  • Sep 23, 2017 5:23pm Sep 23, 2017 5:23pm
Quoting Bones
lol link where it says "small and medium makes less than 10% and the reminding 90%" Your talking about entire infrastructures you think there move- tell me why? Corporation tax uk easy wipes any tariff , you don't need to be a member to carry on trading with Europe what precisely is the problem ? It's uncertainty revolving around Brexit that makes it so bad, UK is no 1 financial centre in the world ,I'm talking this year... that will stay in any event due to many reasons Monday 28 August 2017 9:32pmNissan is set to bump up production at...
check out page 6 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/321403/UKEF_Business_Plan_2014-17.pdf

You are almost right but London , not UK was no 1 financial city not as a country, but didnt you see latest movements of Financial firms towards to Europe ? Lloyd`s Bank , Deutsche Bank , HSBC clearly wont stay , J.P. Morgan Chase & Co already moving out , Credit Suisse , New York Mellon Corp already moving in , not only to be in EU but also London is too expensive to be in .

The news about Nissan, its the success of the company , nothing to do with brexit ,

The true is there is no Brexit yet so news like this is only propaganda , the results of Brexit is a speculation
  • #115
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  • Sep 23, 2017 5:26pm Sep 23, 2017 5:26pm
Quoting Bones
sounds wrong is wrong • In 2016, there were 5.5 million businesses in the UK. • Over 99% of businesses are Small or Medium Sized businesses – employing 0-249 people • 5.3 million (96%) businesses were micro-businesses – employing 0-9 people. Micro-businesses accounted for 32% of employment and 19% of turnover. Since 2000, the number of businesses in the UK has increased each year, by 3% on average. In 2016, there were 2.0 million more businesses than in 2000, an increase of 59% over the whole period. Although the vast majority of businesses in the...
This shows Business population , so of course , 99% are small business , but that 1 percents brings 80% of GDP , and thats what we are looking for
  • #116
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  • Edited 8:14pm Sep 23, 2017 7:24pm | Edited 8:14pm
of course I'm talking London
London is in the UK
I see repositioning to cover fall out completely Brexit ,
I see a German bank the biggest mover in trouble in its own right
London will overcome long term there not putting answers to problems because that's not in there interest

London share of finances went up even higher just a few weeks ago ,US was down a lot ,Germany up

The loser was US


Quoting stryjek
{quote} check out page 6 https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...an_2014-17.pdf You are almost right but London , not UK was no 1 financial city not as a country, but didnt you see latest movements of Financial firms towards to Europe ? Lloyd`s Bank , Deutsche Bank , HSBC clearly wont stay , J.P. Morgan Chase & Co already moving out , Credit Suisse , New York Mellon Corp already moving in , not only to be in EU but also London is too expensive to be in . The news about Nissan, its the...
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  • #117
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  • Edited 8:00pm Sep 23, 2017 7:44pm | Edited 8:00pm
ok im talking country your talking exporters ,you realise UK is not a exporter that would be Germany
I might add the UK current account is looking way more healthy

"exports and imports of goods and services individually accounted for around 30% and 32% of GDP respectively"

If you took services out of that ... London is London it trades with world there is no other logical place
Like I say you think that will move is easy


Quoting stryjek
{quote} check out page 6 https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...an_2014-17.pdf You are almost right but London , not UK was no 1 financial city not as a country, but didnt you see latest movements of Financial firms towards to Europe ? Lloyd`s Bank , Deutsche Bank , HSBC clearly wont stay , J.P. Morgan Chase & Co already moving out , Credit Suisse , New York Mellon Corp already moving in , not only to be in EU but also London is too expensive to be in . The news about Nissan, its the...
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  • #118
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  • Edited 8:47pm Sep 23, 2017 8:09pm | Edited 8:47pm
sorry London down just 2 point 1 year on, you commented on it
https://www.forexfactory.com/news.php?do=news&id=698724

Some positioning
other offices will be needed depending on the deal
but I highly doubt the exodus warned
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  • #119
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  • Edited 10:09pm Sep 23, 2017 8:35pm | Edited 10:09pm
The Question I asked is why do you think Businesses will move from the UK after Brexit
and I don't want a biased survey, I don't read what you imply in the survey
say a practical reason why


If you look what Nisson are doing there actually sourcing UK parts

"It will also aim to source 80 per cent of its parts from the UK; it currently brings in 40 per cent of its components from UK manufacturers."


My opinion there be dynamic shifts but overall makes no difference, just like not joining the euro
yet we are free to strike deals elsewhere and not paying huge amounts of money for the red line open borders to carry on
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  • #120
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  • Sep 23, 2017 9:44pm Sep 23, 2017 9:44pm
pessimistic economist get it wrong let's see that year-end just how far
I see lots of green in recent months
early in the year they had to admit we were wrong ,consumers didn't care
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  • #121
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  • Sep 24, 2017 4:50am Sep 24, 2017 4:50am
Quoting Bones
pessimistic economist get it wrong let's see that year-end just how far I see lots of green in recent months early in the year they had to admit we were wrong ,consumers didn't care {image}
recent months its not a brexit its only talk about brexit you can see green because the weakness of pound, that of course work great for the short run , the forecast can be right of course but its just a forecast, watch latest movements of EU towards IT giants that are not paying taxes from profit in EU and the rest of the world, think of what UK can negotiate about that as a single country, yes EU can help to set the rules and then UK can also request to change it , but there will be more regulations and protections as BIG can do more . Watch China and their protection structure, they can , separate countries cannot do more if you compete with big ones.
  • #122
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  • Edited 9:05am Sep 24, 2017 8:42am | Edited 9:05am
Your view starts on the bais business is not dynamic and fluid I see regularly,
rigid
there's a problem answer= ballistic business will leave
have faith in your country why business is here in the beginning,
It's not about to happen which I point example Nisson looking how to deal with a problem...

Many Europeans read Uk like it was in the 70s still no idea how hard a working nation it is ,
actually harder working than many by hours
Unemployment is much lower than EU avaerage

Carney will continue to be wrong because he's influencing models on a pessimist starting point ,
He doesn't pick up public mood ,who to this day are not worried and stand firm against his projections/tone overall imo
also shown consumer spending numbers
exactly why hes the wrong leader of the BoE

I agree weaker £ has helped ,but that was already inbuilt in projections on that they were right
That BoE post-exit projection GDP was 0.8 ,my guess final will be 2% 2017 based on the green coming through
BoE latest revision wrong again





Quoting stryjek
{quote} recent months its not a brexit its only talk about brexit you can see green because the weakness of pound, that of course work great for the short run , the forecast can be right of course but its just a forecast, watch latest movements of EU towards IT giants that are not paying taxes from profit in EU and the rest of the world, think of what UK can negotiate about that as a single country, yes EU can help to set the rules and then UK can also request to change it , but there will be more regulations and protections as BIG can do more ....
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  • #123
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  • Edited 9:58am Sep 24, 2017 9:12am | Edited 9:58am
technically euro has to have a superb week to change the outlook..in line with my fundamental-not Cliff {RIP}
looking towards parity
a quarterly close this M
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  • #124
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  • Edited 9:39am Sep 24, 2017 9:23am | Edited 9:39am
much time Cliff fretting about the Uk,
hang on all's not rosy elsewhere
if it closes bullish
it's bullish outlook again

Basically
Cliff-like Carney has spent the last year wrong a lot

yet Cliff held superpowers in his mind


Probability is with the bulls to close well
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