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  • The Greek "Choice": Hand Over Sovereignty Or Take Five Year Euro "Time Out"

    From zerohedge.com

    For those who missed today's festivities in Brussels, here is the 30,000 foot summary: Europe has given Greece a "choice": hand over sovereignty to Germany Europe or undergo a 5 year Grexit "time out", which is a polite euphemism for get the hell out. As noted earlier, here are the 12 conditions laid out as a result of the latest Eurogroup meeting, which are far more draconian than anything presented to Greece yet and which effectively require that Greece cede sovereignty to Europe, this time even without the implementation of a technocratic government. Streamlining VAT Broadening the tax base Sustainability of ... (full story)

They voted NO to a bad deal. They better not take the Worse deal.
Forexia its easy to say that from your chair with food in the fridge.... now try that again with no money, a country confused by the lack of a lot of basic stuff, banks closed and so on.

Then, your primary concern might be who pays for you to get food, who opens the banks so you can get some money out and so on.

Besides, let`s not forget who is to blame here... Greece took the money and lied to enter the Eurozone... and yet it still got help. For what, 7 years? Now they come and slam the table saying that they are unable to continue... after they already got so many billions and they try to black mail the Eurozone with a "if we go you go with us" strategy.

Well, they did get them pissed, but the tactic ultimately failed as well they had all the money and Greece loses 50% to 80% of their economy if it makes a hasty exit...

In the end, the best solution would have been to just sign it the first time. Now all they can do is beg and cry hoping they allow them to still get a bailout, because if they don`t its time to prepare for mass starvation...

Also funny they did not want their pensions/salary cut, but with a new currency it will be even lower than what the Eurogroup wanted + the many other negative aspects... so all they did was make it worse for the people.

Maybe the people should skin some politicians... that would show they are serious about getting the bailout.
greece should fix their own problems. no one is willing to pay their bills indefinitely.
use leverage with caution...
I would raedily take the five-year "time-out", hoping it will become permanent. I actually prefer it even to instant Grexit.
"Spread your cheeks so I can get this strap on into your asshole. Sorry I have no lube."
"OK, Angela."

This is a quote from Zero Hedge page's reader, just made me laugh out loud
Why such a rigid stance? To learn is the funniest process in live...
I'd feel sorry for the Greeks if my asshole wasn't so sore too.
As the lights go by so too do the shadows move
If I had lent that kind of money to someone and they continued to ruin their finances and then turned around and said they are 'sorry but cannot continue to pay, thanks for your help though.' I'd want to some security.

Tsipras used the situation to get into power seemingly without any real plan to deal with 'no more austerity'. Just said what he needed to say to get the votes now........uuuummmm how do we stay open for business? O borrow some more money....hang on there's a bit of a problem. Who votes for someone that says ' no more austerity ' with out having a clear cut solution for their finances, they would have had to be in possession of some miracle tech or financial instrument to support themselves without further help from the ECB etc.

Why is everyone so pissed with the creditors, how are they the bad guys for bailing them out over and over?
Quoting limitless01
If I had lent that kind of money to someone and they continued to ruin their finances and then turned around and said they are 'sorry but cannot continue to pay, thanks for your help though.' I'd want to some security.

Tsipras used the situation to get into power seemingly without any real plan to deal with 'no more austerity'. Just said what he needed to say to get the votes now........uuuummmm how do we stay open for business? O borrow some more money....hang on there's a bit of a problem. Who votes for someone that says ' no more austerity...

Nicely put bro...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJv_A2DWsAEnBvh.jpg:large
IMHO,the key to save EURO is either Dr. Schaueble's resignation or him being fired. The success of his obsessive dream of "Grexit" will be the beginning of end of Euro and Euro Zone.
It's time for Greece to admit default (or defeat). They need a new currency with no other countries in the way or to help carry them. If they could have held out till October, the Yuan will be a reserve currency and they could maybe peg the new drachma to renmimbi.
Quoting minortrader
IMHO,the key to save EURO is either Dr. Schaueble's resignation or him being fired. The success of his obsessive dream of "Grexit" will be the beginning of end of Euro and Euro Zone.
We hear this from the British media more than a decade. Last time I checked euro is still there.
Quoting Tradethepips
"Spread your cheeks so I can get this strap on into your asshole. Sorry I have no lube."
"OK, Angela."

This is a quote from Zero Hedge page's reader, just made me laugh out loud
Sometimes you just need to take the pain :-).
Quoting dionyssus
I would raedily take the five-year "time-out", hoping it will become permanent. I actually prefer it even to instant Grexit.
Yes, but the problem is the people get used to government spending and 14 salaries per year (and the 14 pensions too) and will not share your vision. This is how the populism rules Greece for 30+ yrs. It is not Greek patent though - it is just political trick used everywhere.
Quoting wlarimer
It's time for Greece to admit default (or defeat). They need a new currency with no other countries in the way or to help carry them. If they could have held out till October, the Yuan will be a reserve currency and they could maybe peg the new drachma to renmimbi.
And their new PM will have some flurish name like xxxx xxxx Mao. :-).

Asian stock markets may not last till October...
Quoting alexandru987
Forexia its easy to say that from your chair with food in the fridge.... now try that again with no money, a country confused by the lack of a lot of basic stuff, banks closed and so on.

Then, your primary concern might be who pays for you to get food, who opens the banks so you can get some money out and so on.
Well right now with what EU is imposing on Greece, there is not much difference for Greece if it stays or leaves EU. If it stays in EU, that 12 conditions basically means Greece will have no money; every single Euro that they earn will be going to paying back the loan. And if they leave EU, they will have no money but at least they still have their sovereignty (for how long is the question) and not to be lost and divided and quartered by the rest of EU.

And I wouldn't say Greece necessarily took the money and lied; it's just that they took the money and mismanaged it. But then again, do you really expect them to make any money while using a currency that is 1.5X more expensive than the DOLLAR?!!! Seriously? And it's not like Greece was producing something like the Rolex watch and charge people an arm and leg for it? All Greece has to sell for money is something that they can dig up from the ground, either for personal consumption at the lowest level like salt and fruits or used as lowest level inputs for manufacturing by others like aluminium plates or copper tubes. How is Greece going to make money selling things like salt? Charging $200 for a bottle of salt? Nowadays if you can't differentiate your products/services enough to charge a premium, you have to go into the price war, but with a currency that's MORE expensive than USD is NOT going to win you that war especially when you have countries like India and China who's currency is 7+ X that's 700+% lower than euro producing the same inputs for manufacturing. Lies or no lies, the truth of the matter IS Greece can't make money while having an expensive currency and being what economists call a perfectly competitive seller for their goods.

From the creditors and EU's side, although I understand that they probably want to take the honourable approach in lending Greece money but it is utterly irresponsible and imprudent they way that they gave out loans to Greece. For us regular joes, we have to have proven solid income with our pay stubs and letters of income from our employer, healthy debt ratio with our income way higher than our expenses, and we only ask for hundred's of K's of $ to buy a house, an INVESTMENT not even for consumption, and the bank wants our house as collateral. Even when we go for a car loan which is what at most ten's of thousands of $ and they want our cars as collateral so in case if we can't pay they get the collateral. And yet, they lend $BILLION's to a country like Greece that they know have NO proven solid income from their undiversified economic structure, already a high debt ratio AND a HUGE budget deficit which means their income is not covering their expenses at all, and yet they give out such high amount of loans with so much at stake and asking no collaterals or physical guarantees of any sort? What? Just because it's a country then it's too big to fail? It cannot declare bankruptcy? It's different somehow? If this is not utter stupidity and naivety, I don't know what is.

Now after TWO default, they are FINALLY asking for some securitization of some sort? It's too little too late and at the same time creating bad blood between EU and Greece. They should've asked for the securitization right with the very first batch of bailout loans that you shell out then it would've protected the creditors in some way and at the same time ensured proper management of the loans on Greece's part. If Greece had problems with securitization of the loans, then they could've raised the issue right there and then and both EU and Greece can, perhaps go to the source of the problem and resolve them.
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This is the first step to create a true United Europe..all countries should give up their suveranity and to be united as one..same as US..in this way germans will not be afraid to invest in Greece or whatever country in Europe that has troubles, all the German surplus will be spread and every country in UE will develop as one...Today, Europe is too divided and now this is only a far dream, but at least it should make a first step..Greece can be the first step and others can follow in a true integration.
I'd say, if that deal comes to pass, that it would be time for Greeks to leave Greece. On foot if need be. There will Never be money to pay larger and larger loans without growth in gdp. There IS no money, and there Never will be. Starvation is no fun. Time to bug out.
Quoting Forexia
.... Now after TWO default, they are FINALLY asking for some securitization of some sort? It's too little too late and at the same time creating bad blood between EU and Greece. They should've asked for the securitization right with the very first batch of bailout loans that you shell out then it would've protected the creditors in some way and at the same time ensured proper management of the loans on Greece's part. ....
The bailouts in 2010 were designed to protect the lenders at the time. The debt was assumed by the Troika in order to get some European banks off the hook.

However, in other news, and a complete surprise to me and which shows that anti-Greece feelings extend further into northern Europe than you might have imagined....

The Finnish participants to the current negotiations are reported as having said something like (can't remember the exact words) 'no more bailouts ... ever' or maybe 'no more excuses'. Whatever, the meaning was clear, Finland has no more time for anything Greek.
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.....and in other news, from Sharecast

"Belgium's Prime Minister Charles Michel has announced that an agreement between Greece and its European counterparts has been reached.

News of the possible agreement sent Euro Stoxx 50 futures 28 points into the black and led to a spike in the euro/dollar to 1.1197. The Footsie has started the morning up by two tenths of a percentage point.

According to one report European Central Bank president Mario Draghi exited the negotiations through a side door after their conclusion."

...Draghi leaves through the tradesman's entrance ??
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life!
Quoting Exodus
The bailouts in 2010 were designed to protect the lenders at the time. The debt was assumed by the Troika in order to get some European banks off the hook.
Yes but still NOT securitized with any collateral in any way. Just because it was the Troika extending the loan it doesn't make the loan any more secure. It's still subject to the same vulnerability as loans extended by any other institutions and we were right. Greek defaulted on that one just the same because the fundamental problem was never addressed in this turmoil: Greece is NOT making any money and is NOT able to make any money!!! With no money coming in, how are they going to pay back loans??!!!

Quoting Exodus
However, in other news, and a complete surprise to me and which shows that anti-Greece feelings extend further into northern Europe than you might have imagined....

The Finnish participants to the current negotiations are reported as having said something like (can't remember the exact words) 'no more bailouts ... ever' or maybe 'no more excuses'. Whatever, the meaning was clear, Finland has no more time for anything Greek.
Yeah Finland is right. I totally agree with them. There is absolutely NO benefit at least ECONOMIC benefit for Greece or EU to have Greece stay in atm. With no changes in the EU or the Euro system, Greece's economy and debt situation would not see any improvement; it's just going to be another default somewhere down the road and everybody can see that.

I think at this point it's really more a geo-political and even geo-military issue if Greece stays or goes. EU is NOT the only country or organization that can and are willing to help Greece at this point but WHY do they insist on clutching Greece in their grasp to have Greece stay in EU when it's clear that Greece's exiting from EU and using its own currency is not a bad thing for everybody? Could it have something to do with Greece being really one of the frontier of Europe to the East besides Turkey and Crimea (which is already "gone" in Europe and US's eyes) and just like Turkey, is the bridge between East and West? I mean do THEY REALLY want to see Greece to have autonomy while having or having received help from countries from the OTHER side?

I already said in my post before, far more countries with FAR more worse economic situation and lot less resources than Greece have thrived from nothing totally on their own, not part of any union or received any "bailouts", so Greece can TOTALLY do it after getting out of EU so WHY the reluctance?
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
Imo it's nothing to do with Greece perse but rather about the stability of the Euro itself. A Grexit may create a precedence for others to follow and ultimately the collapse but it's probably more about stability and what it will look like (weakness) if a member state leaves.
As the lights go by so too do the shadows move
Quoting Matts Micro
Imo it's nothing to do with Greece perse but rather about the stability of the Euro itself. A Grexit may create a precedence for others to follow and ultimately the collapse but it's probably more about stability and what it will look like (weakness) if a member state leaves.
Yes but keeping Greece and all the other countries with similar economies as Greece in the EU is NOT going to improve or maintain the stability of the Euro. If the stability or rather the sustainability of the euro is being threatened here it's because the euro and the EU system that exists does NOT work and need reform and change. The exist of all those countries of Greece and like Greece is just the reflection of that fact.

You have a rigid one-size-fits-all currency system along with an inflexible monetary system that's being forced upon all countries of myriad of different economic strength that does not reflect nor adapt to their own individual economic situation and yet at the same time you expect them to function as if they have the same economic strength.

It's like forcing a team of athletes of different height to wear exactly the same length of pants and expect them to run around the track at exactly the same speed. Well some of the shorter athletes that have been fitted with the pants longer than their heights are going to trip and fall but you don't care you still whip them to try to make them run faster. Well those shorter athletes got discouraged and want to leave the team but you don't let them because you are afraid that if they leave you worry about the "stability of the team". How is it going to work?

I cannot believe nobody sees that so that's why I say geo-political reasons is really the only reason WHY they are having Greece staying in the EU.
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Yeps, aware of these misgivings but combined the EU is like a super power that can challenge the USD. Do you really think money is interested in the laggers of a running race? In the Euro it's a team game and needs them all if possible, even if it means picking up the weakest by his boxers and dragging him to the finish line.

Size does matter.

Not saying this absolute reason or any such.. but need to think like money not like an employee who is complaining about the hard hours. (Not anybody personally just as expression).
As the lights go by so too do the shadows move
Yes but HOW LONG can they be dragged by the boxers before the entire team is all tired out and nobody ends up making it to the finish line?

And the most frustrating thing is that those weaker members CAN run AND are willing to train hard to run faster to reach the finish line. It's not true and fair to say that they are employees who are complaining about the hard hours. I used to think that about the Greek and the other weak economies but I don't think that anymore. No, they are not making it not because they don't want to run faster; it's because they are wearing too long of pants that are tripping them up when they are running!!! This is NOT a misgiving; it's an issue that's directly causing Greece and EU not succeeding. If you can just trim their pants to fit their height, they WILL be able to make it, not as fast as the other stronger team members but they WILL be able to make it.

You can't have a working team with members that constantly need to be carried by the stronger team members and cannot function on their own at all. Not all team members have to be equally strong BUT they ALL have to be FUNCTIONING and contributing to the team or AT LEAST not to be draining from the team otherwise the whole team will collapse, sooner or later.

You can try to keep Greece and all the other weaker economies inside EU for now and keep feeding them at the expense of the stronger economies but you can't do it forever. It's NOT sustainable and eventually the whole EU will collapse unless something changes. You trim the pants!!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
Quoting Forexia
.... I think at this point it's really more a geo-political and even geo-military issue if Greece stays or goes. EU is NOT the only country or organization that can and are willing to help Greece at this point but WHY do they insist on clutching Greece in their grasp to have Greece stay in EU when it's clear that Greece's exiting from EU and using its own currency is not a bad thing for everybody? Could it have something to do with Greece being really one of the frontier of Europe to the East besides Turkey and Crimea (which is already "gone"...
It may have something to do with Greece being also a NATO member.
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Quoting Forexia
It's NOT sustainable and eventually the whole EU will collapse unless something changes. You trim the pants!!

Don't get me wrong I agree with what your saying it's just a pity they don't see it that way. It's why most countries CB's are key because it can "trim the pants" to suit its own economic needs which the ECB fails to do. Greece isn't without fault however and though hardship was perhaps inevitable it may have recovered if they played to the rules. The rules were probably unfair and maybe even unjust but a bank is a bank (evil) and doesn't care if you can't pay your mortgage and will recover its losses anyway it can. Greece had options early in the piece but defied the rules and now finds itself in an even deeper darker hole. Though I'm standing on the outside looking in, it's hard to feel sorry for a people who wouldn't help themselves.
imo.
As the lights go by so too do the shadows move
Quoting Exodus
It may have something to do with Greece being also a NATO member.
Make sense and it's so sad and disturbing to think that no matter how much they sing the song about "us not so different you and I and we are all in a global village" but at the end of the day, it's still about the East against the West.

I feel so sorry for Greece sometimes. Just because of its geographic location, it has to lose its autonomy on many things and they have to be plagued by so many wars that everybody wants a piece of them...
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Quoting Matts Micro
Don't get me wrong I agree with what your saying it's just a pity they don't see it that way. It's why most countries CB's are key because it can "trim the pants" to suit its own economic needs which the ECB fails to do. Greece isn't without fault however and though hardship was perhaps inevitable it may have recovered if they played to the rules. The rules were probably unfair and maybe even unjust but a bank is a bank (evil) and doesn't care if you can't pay your mortgage and will recover its losses anyway it can. Greece had options early...
Quoting Matts Micro
Don't get me wrong I agree with what your saying it's just a pity they don't see it that way. It's why most countries CB's are key because it can "trim the pants" to suit its own economic needs which the ECB fails to do. Greece isn't without fault however and though hardship was perhaps inevitable it may have recovered if they played to the rules. The rules were probably unfair and maybe even unjust but a bank is a bank (evil) and doesn't care if you can't pay your mortgage and will recover its losses anyway it can. Greece had options early...
Well you can't really play "by the rules" if you can't even stand on your own feet. Yes Greece might have tried to cut corners in some places but the crux of the matter is they just DON'T have the ability to PAY because they are NOT making any money!! They DO have their own self-interest that they need to look after. Can you blame them? People there were committing suicide there simply because they cannot have enough money to feed themselves anymore. I once watched a documentary about Greece several years ago when they received the first bailout loan, a senior finance minister in the government really high up in the government hierarchy can't remember his exact position level, lost his job because of austerity measures! A senior finance minister!! And that was just with the first bailout loan!

In Utopia, everybody is honest and polite and caring and generous toward each other. WHY? Because they don't have any reasons NOT to because the resource is abundant!!! Imagine you have $10 million in your pocket and you make $10 million each month and you have to make $1000 mortgage payment, do you bother to "defy the rules" by skipping that payment except maybe just for the fun of it just to see what the bank can do and will do? It's when you don't have the ability to pay, that's when you start to "defy the rules" because you have other mouths to feed.
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Quoting Matts Micro
.... Though I'm standing on the outside looking in, it's hard to feel sorry for a people who wouldn't help themselves.
imo.
I also am on the outside looking in. IMO it is exactly because a few people helped themselves that Greece is in this situation. Those few people being some of the former senior politicians in charge a couple of decades ago (I don't know which ones...). The symptoms today (debt, misery, recession) are not due to today's politicians, they are due to the legacy of former misconduct finally catching up....
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