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  • High-Frequency Fight Starts in Foreign Exchange

    From bloomberg.com

    Foreign-exchange dealers say they have the solution to the high-frequency trades eroding banks’ profits across financial markets. A currency-dealing platform known as ParFX, established in 2011 by firms from Deutsche Bank AG to Citigroup Inc., was approached last month by banks asking if its technology could be applied to other asset classes, Chief Executive Officer Dan Marcus said. The system works by pausing trades at random to prevent dealers with high-powered computers from jumping in front of investors and gaining an advantage. “These banks do need to trade foreign exchange because it’s their business and ... (full story)

Poor bankers aren't making enough on spreads and losers, they gotta try and fix the game against others who can win.

Not an HF trader, but how many others will be "Randomly Affected" by this bullshit?
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
In the other hand HFT is increasing trading Volume
Get Rich or Die Tryin
Quoting hoom
In the other hand HFT is increasing trading Volume
In the same way that Prop Traders have added to the Stock Market for Years.

Snapping the inbetweens because they are in bed with brokers, adding liquidity to dog shit stocks to create motion and how many people bitch about this?

If you aren't offended by this, you shouldn't be trading.
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
offended yes , would prefer a clean environement rathen than this shit
Get Rich or Die Tryin
How do HFT jump in front someone if there is no centralized exchange in FX?
http://youtu.be/GEAGdwHXfLQ
"The Wall Street Code" - this is so good it has to be posted in case someone who would enjoy it missed it.
Quoting Greenstar
http://youtu.be/GEAGdwHXfLQ
"The Wall Street Code" - this is so good it has to be posted in case someone who would enjoy it missed it.
Watching the video now. This is dynamite!!! Thank you!
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GU, AUD and Euro now fully targeted by HFT's that is why they are rising strongly and may not even retrace this year. Tanks
I could say this was inevitable. Decentralized, little to no regulation....

HFT activity in equities, although present, has declined about 15% in the last few years to 50%. However, HFT in FX has jumped considerably from about 15-20% to 35% in have the time.
When the facts change I change my mind, what do you do sir
I will not be surprised if the indices in the markets,wall, sp500,Nasd, with large open gap near the maximum or open with a new maximum tos to kill the bears.
something great can happen.
bitcoin with space for 707 usd after hell, because hell because it will be regulated and high price does not exist. I feel that soon a giant red candle will see in plantaformas, and from what I've seen some plantaformas when there is a rapid movement they get off. this with a regulated market bitcoin can not happen. mt.gox burned along will other more. bitcoin without regulation is a dirty market.
some
Iirc approx 30 minutes in the documentary turns to where the dumb money comes in. A guy lists: HFT, banks, exchanges, brokers then refers to the easy lunch low hanging fruit dumb money trying to buy such as pensions funds etc.

Now consider pension funds buying through brokers might use platforms such as EBS, Eikon, Autobahn and yet these guys in the film are laughing at where they are in the queue, they don't even mention retail who are an elevator drop below pension fund managers trying to buy. More evidence if needed that if you want to try and earn crumbs or earn a decent crust from retail only swing/trend trading gives you half a chance.
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
There's also another good film in that series about quants, now all retail brokers particularly market makers have quants working at the retail firms and some of the quants duties are to devise ways of ripping off the clients. It's all kept a bit hush hush but you're gambling on an online roulette table at the end of the day so the house will tilt it in their favour, just a touch, as the likes of FXCM proved in their two massive fines. They won't stop hunt or any of that nonsense as the market 'does' that for them, they'll just "do an FXCM" and shave a few pips off orders when they could.
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
These guys make me sick. HFT is nothing but market Spam, and these guys front running everyone with their fast computers is just sick stuff, if everyone had the same advantage then there would be no advantage. I mean putting a box right next door to a building and I am 2000 miles away, yea that's fair.

And then they want this new firm to be the referee and "randomly" infuse latency? Haha i just have to laugh, how long is it going to be before they start "randomly" letting more of a certain client's trade through untouched? This is a disaster waiting to happen, but I believe that the bigs banks just want to kill HFT so they could do it behind the scene and have a middle man that could take the fall if it's ever discovered, these guys should be in jail.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
HFT doesn't affect retail trading, it's worlds aparts. The overall industry doesn't care about the accident of birth that is retail FX trading, it's just a bit of chump change for the banks and brokers. Post 13 on this thread has it right, retail trading is so far down in the queue it doesn't even register, it's nowhere. What guys like you need to do is wake up and find something better to do with your time and money rather than blame others for your lack of progress.



Quoting saneblane
These guys make me sick. HFT is nothing but market Spam, and these guys front running everyone with their fast computers is just sick stuff, if everyone had the same advantage then there would be no advantage. I mean putting a box right next door to a building and I am 2000 miles away, yea that's fair.

And then they want this new firm to be the referee and "randomly" infuse latency? Haha i just have to laugh, how long is it going to be before they start "randomly" letting more of a certain client's trade through untouched? This is a disaster...
I don't understand what you mean. That's like people that have a cable bill for $120 and the cable company increases the rate every year by 25 cents some won't care but eventually those cents turn to dollars. No one knows how much they take from us, but even if it's one Pip that is one pip too much. Some retailers have big accounts and 1 pips is not chump change, so you can take it but these guys aren't here to make Disney dollars they are here to make real money. We might not be the prime target but collateral damage is still damage. Retail volume is 258 billion a day maybe that's small to you but it is a lot of money no matter how you slice it.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
It's a simple message; HFT has no affect on retail trading. Retail only exists in its own bubble and accounts for less than 8% of FX turnover and the vast majority of that turnover approx 99% (trader losses) is carved up between the brokers and bank.


Quoting saneblane
I don't understand what you mean. That's like people that have a cable bill for $120 and the cable company increases the rate every year by 25 cents some won't care but eventually those cents turn to dollars. No one knows how much they take from us, but even if it's one Pip that is one pip too much. Some retailers have big accounts and 1 pips is not chump change, so you can take it but these guys aren't here to make Disney dollars they are here to make real money. We might not be the prime target but collateral damage is still damage. Retail volume...
LOLOL...what's a poor banker to do?
"It's a simple message; HFT has no affect on retail trading. Retail only exists in its own bubble and accounts for less than 8% of FX turnover and the vast majority of that turnover approx 99% (trader losses) is carved up between the brokers and bank"

That's the thing though, the other 1 percent you ignored, (don't know how you calculated that but that's another story) I am arguing about. Even if it's one cent I argue about it. You have firms that are clocking 1248 winning days and 1 losing day for their entire operation and they are not taking pension fund money alone, it is everyone's money that is being taken in.

1000 winning days in a row. Say it again it might sink in.

"Retail only exists in its own bubble"

I don't even know how to respond to that, here i thought my money was in the same market like everyone else.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
I tend to agree that HFT itself can't hurt retail trading. It's trader himself placing in front of the HFT barrage on the 1m charts that "do the job".
No, your money is not in the market like everyone else's, it's treated very differently by brokers in a highly synthetic market who despite their pretensions otherwise (through the pretence of ECN/STP) are mainly market makers living on your losses which they carve up between the banks they route your orders to the market..eventually...

I'll repeat, the activities of HFT has no affect whatsoever on the ability of the 99% of losers who'd lose whether or not HFT existed or was controlled. Moreover, and just widening the discussion slightly, the activity of algorithmic trading by HFT and investment banks could in fact help create those trends that we all thrive on and heighten the daily ranges I currently thrive on and have done for several years.

Quoting saneblane
"It's a simple message; HFT has no affect on retail trading. Retail only exists in its own bubble and accounts for less than 8% of FX turnover and the vast majority of that turnover approx 99% (trader losses) is carved up between the brokers and bank"

That's the thing though, the other 1 percent you ignored, (don't know how you calculated that but that's another story) I am arguing about. Even if it's one cent I argue about it. You have firms that are clocking 1248 winning days and 1 losing day for their entire operation and they are not taking...
I can understand the angst and false protests versus HFT given how it's positioned as somewhat immoral in a business whose ethics are questionable at all levels, but as you rightly point out the vast majority of traders are their own worst enemy.


Quoting michaelpelly
I tend to agree that HFT itself can't hurt retail trading. It's trader himself placing in front of the HFT barrage on the 1m charts that "do the job".
Squeeze is right. Anyone claiming to scalp on the retail side is full of it. It's all noise to those of us that make money by swing trading, which is why we prefer the dailys and up.

Trade less, make more....it's part of our "edge."


Cheers
Quoting sliqdaddy91
Squeeze is right. Anyone claiming to scalp on the retail side is full of it. It's all noise to those of us that make money by swing trading, which is why we prefer the dailys and up.

Trade less, make more....it's part of our "edge."


Cheers
Still can't realize why people want to rack their nerves by trading on smaller charts. It is enough to see the daily candles for the cable in last 24 months - wonderful and clearly evident setups to trade.
Quoting sliqdaddy91
Squeeze is right. Anyone claiming to scalp on the retail side is full of it. It's all noise to those of us that make money by swing trading, which is why we prefer the dailys and up.

Trade less, make more....it's part of our "edge."


Cheers
Quoting michaelpelly
Still can't realize why people want to rack their nerves by trading on smaller charts. It is enough to see the daily candles for the cable in last 24 months - wonderful and clearly evident setups to trade.
So, what are you guys holding as of current by way of trades?

I find that most guys that talk about swinging and that say that scalping is bullshit, spend less time in market than I do...I trip the M1s.

If you aren't holding anything as of current, you are probably the ones full of shit.

Just saying, is all...
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
How many times must it be said that there is many types of HFT'ing strategies. You can't just lump it all into one broad term and say "hft has no affect on retail". here is one example of how it may affect a broad aggregate of retail trades "HFTs can model other traders’ behavior. When someone trades through a retail broker, their order has a unique number attached to it – the same number every time a client places an order. This number is bundled with all relevant trade information (time, price, etc.) and sold as an encrypted “enhanced data feed.” An HFT can then use those past results to predict the trader’s behavior."

the same goes with the "no retail customer can scalp". It comes down to risk management bottom line no matter what strategy you use from scalping to swing trading.
You can invent any amount of scenarios in your head where HFT trading might affect retail but they're in your head which is where they'll stay.

As for scalping, in the real meaning of the concept, IMO its impossible on any retail platform. Do I invite you to prove otherwise? I look forward to the evidence.


Quoting blank
How many times must it be said that there is many types of HFT'ing strategies. You can't just lump it all into one broad term and say "hft has no affect on retail". here is one example of how it may affect a broad aggregate of retail trades "HFTs can model other traders’ behavior. When someone trades through a retail broker, their order has a unique number attached to it – the same number every time a client places an order. This number is bundled with all relevant trade information (time, price, etc.) and sold as an encrypted “enhanced data feed.”...
Quoting Magix
So, what are you guys holding as of current by way of trades?

I find that most guys that talk about swinging and that say that scalping is bullshit, spend less time in market than I do...I trip the M1s.

If you aren't holding anything as of current, you are probably the ones full of shit.

Just saying, is all...
Well, let's hold the good tone and avoid insults. I was just raising concerns about the effectiveness. As goes about my trading strategy and my detailed trading plan - keep the good tone and I might share some useful info.
It's this simple nearly all retail traders lose, let's say 99% aren't profitable in a full year. Nearly 100% of those losses is carved up between banks and brokers. HFT as it's commonly referred to, with the players operating mainly in the equities market, doesn't come into it. HFT is in fact small in the scheme of things only taking approx 1.5 bn out of the markets each year. Broker quants affect retail trader losses in FX far more, let's have an expose on their input. Now there's a story...
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
Quoting michaelpelly
Well, let's hold the good tone and avoid insults. I was just raising concerns about the effectiveness. As goes about my trading strategy and my detailed trading plan - keep the good tone and I might share some useful info.
So, that'd be you have no open positions.

Gotcha.

Figured.

If you have a swing system that is not applicable to a lower time frame for a reduced range, you are a swing trader who flips coins for positions and waits for profit.

I get it...it works...

Not what I call trading, but hey...if you are content with it, kewl.

Just, really...why talk about shit you don't understand? Or is that what all the little newsies do?
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
Quoting Magix
So, that'd be you have no open positions.

Gotcha.

Figured.

If you have a swing system that is not applicable to a lower time frame for a reduced range, you are a swing trader who flips coins for positions and waits for profit.

I get it...it works...

Not what I call trading, but hey...if you are content with it, kewl.

Just, really...why talk about shit you don't understand? Or is that what all the little newsies do?
Dude - seriously - get help and stop being so insulting and aggressive. I'm sure if we see live I would had smacked your little naughty face to the ground. Just keep the good tone.
Quoting michaelpelly
Dude - seriously - get help and stop being so insulting and aggressive. I'm sure if we see live I would had smacked your little naughty face to the ground. Just keep the good tone.
ONE MUST LEARN, DO IT AND IT WILL BE KIND TO YOU
Quoting Aussi
Well?

Isn't it annoying to listen some angry-mid-life-crisis-stuck person lashing-out at you with no reason?! And even not provoked personally by anything I said.

What is wrong with those people - everyone here who is expressing different opinion/view on trading/markets have to be stomped with insults?!

We all know everyone here is the mighty Mo - the same one goes on the road - until I smash someone's door mirror with my biker's protective gloves and enjoy their faces turn red - yet still they remain in the car and just cursing furiously.

I'm not interested if anyone here has a d...k bigger that mine - we all share opinions - lets all respect them - even if they seem quite "wrong".

Being ironic sometimes is helpful - but starting directly with "f...u" is somehow not civilized...
Quoting michaelpelly
Dude - seriously - get help and stop being so insulting and aggressive. I'm sure if we see live I would had smacked your little naughty face to the ground. Just keep the good tone.

Quoting michaelpelly
We all know everyone here is the mighty Mo - the same one goes on the road - until I smash someone's door mirror with my biker's protective gloves and enjoy their faces turn red - yet still they remain in the car and just cursing furiously.
I always find it funny when people resort on the internet to saying 'I'm so tough and big and I can hurt you if I saw you in real life'...

Its the internet mate, the first rule of thumb is that tough talking and bragging about beating people up has put you in last place in the argument.
Quoting Squeeze
I can understand the angst and false protests versus HFT given how it's positioned as somewhat immoral in a business whose ethics are questionable at all levels, but as you rightly point out the vast majority of traders are their own worst enemy.
That "issue" - when people think everybody is trying to screw them up is always somehow related with the trader's background, mental setup towards trading and the playing "victim" role.

The ultimate desire for "fairness" is the same as the natural human desire to have more than the others - in our eyes it is always "fare" to have more granted by the simple fact that we are all "better" than John, Peter, Nick - and we just "deserve" it. Putting himself on that role one's always feels screwed - by politicians, by its boss, by its neighbors, by the banks and HFT players...

But this play-field here is not suited for such mental setup - one should really give himself more clear vision - if "You" win, "I" loose - and vice-verse - really not quite different from a poker game.
Quoting gustavhunter
I always find it funny when people resort on the internet to saying 'I'm so tough and big and I can hurt you if I saw you in real life'...

Its the internet mate, the first rule of thumb is that tough talking and bragging about beating people up has put you in last place in the argument.
You're quite right - I really got a bit off - but my point toward politeness is still valid.
Quoting michaelpelly
Well?

Isn't it annoying to listen some angry-mid-life-crisis-stuck person lashing-out at you with no reason?! And even not provoked personally by anything I said.

What is wrong with those people - everyone here who is expressing different opinion/view on trading/markets have to be stomped with insults?!

We all know everyone here is the mighty Mo - the same one goes on the road - until I smash someone's door mirror with my biker's protective gloves and enjoy their faces turn red - yet still they remain in the car and just cursing furiously....
I also at times hold my tongue but some times you have to say what you say , how many times do i turn my cheek , I believe michaelpelly should say what he means when being insulted nothing is gain by people who make nasty statements truth by good people Michael like your self don't need to find a middle ground
ONE MUST LEARN, DO IT AND IT WILL BE KIND TO YOU
Quoting Magix
So, what are you guys holding as of current by way of trades?

I find that most guys that talk about swinging and that say that scalping is bullshit, spend less time in market than I do...I trip the M1s.

If you aren't holding anything as of current, you are probably the ones full of shit.

Just saying, is all...

I am holding positions at the moment. 4 to be exact, I swing trade dailys like I said and I am not full of shit.

Long USD CHF at .87796 (running decent profit), Short CAD JPY 92.652 (running at a loss at moment--stops are in though and if breached am out), Short EUR GBP at .84242 (in slight profit at the moment), and Long CHF JPY at 116 (although, running at slight loss my stop is fairly tighter than normal so if price doesn't move in the next day or so I am out)...

You might see that my YEN trades at the moment are a bit perplexing as on is Yen Short and the other Yen Long...I know currencies tend to move in correlations but if I see a set up and they do contradict like the above, I take it, ...why? Stick to the system.

Cheers Magix
Quoting sliqdaddy91
I am holding positions at the moment. 4 to be exact, I swing trade dailys like I said and I am not full of shit.

Long USD CHF at .87796 (running decent profit), Short CAD JPY 92.652 (running at a loss at moment--stops are in though and if breached am out), Short EUR GBP at .84242 (in slight profit at the moment), and Long CHF JPY at 116 (although, running at slight loss my stop is fairly tighter than normal so if price doesn't move in the next day or so I am out)...

You might see that my YEN trades at the moment are a bit perplexing as on...
Good stuff, brother.

Whether you are or not, you have provided a reasonable set of positions, where as slappy is just content on talking smack.

I've got no problems with somebody holding a Nedge, if you are swinging, it can in certain circumstance make sense and be used to gauge positions.

Keep on, keepin on!

Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
Quoting sliqdaddy91
I am holding positions at the moment. 4 to be exact, I swing trade dailys like I said and I am not full of shit.

Long USD CHF at .87796 (running decent profit), Short CAD JPY 92.652 (running at a loss at moment--stops are in though and if breached am out), Short EUR GBP at .84242 (in slight profit at the moment), and Long CHF JPY at 116 (although, running at slight loss my stop is fairly tighter than normal so if price doesn't move in the next day or so I am out)...

You might see that my YEN trades at the moment are a bit perplexing as on...
That USDCHF long is sure fighting the trend. Nice entry nonetheless. I'm positioned opposite, have been long EURUSD since 1.36, so let's hope we can both squeeze out a few dollars here.
Quoting alexboyd
That USDCHF long is sure fighting the trend. Nice entry nonetheless. I'm positioned opposite, have been long EURUSD since 1.36, so let's hope we can both squeeze out a few dollars here.

Indeed it has, but my stop is pulled well up from where entry was so profits will be booked if price does indeed get back in favor of the trend.... Gotta let your winners run...as well as cut your losers short (hence the tight stops on the yen trades) ...


Cheers
Quoting Squeeze
HFT doesn't affect retail trading, it's worlds aparts. The overall industry doesn't care about the accident of birth that is retail FX trading, it's just a bit of chump change for the banks and brokers. Post 13 on this thread has it right, retail trading is so far down in the queue it doesn't even register, it's nowhere. What guys like you need to do is wake up and find something better to do with your time and money rather than blame others for your lack of progress.
When a news item comes out market moves 10-30 pips, before HFT retail and other human traders could have a piece of that now its impossible to jump ahead of HFT. That's one example of how HFT effects retail.

Retail is an important part of forex market for the liquidity they bring in a very illiquid market. Anyone who think of forex a 5 tril a day market needs a bucket of cold water thrown on them.

60-70% of that quoted volume is hot-potato trading, rest you divide on 20 odd major currency pairs, by 24 for liquidity in an hour, by 60 for liquidity in a minute, by 60 again for liquidity available each second, divide by 2 as their are two sides to the market (Bid/Ask)

Whatever is left of that 5 tril market would also be divided again on major FX trading platforms as we know market is decentralized and all that liq is scattered on different platforms.

Anyone who has ever traded more than 50std lots at any single platform would know how precious each and every participant is in the market who brings in liq and plays a fair game.
Retail order routing has always been at the bottom of the food chain, always was and always will be. HFT doesn't 'steal' out of the mouths of retail traders, the brokers (nicking a pip on every order you make) and banks do that. The retail trade represented by the likes of you and the rest of the contributors on FF only adds a couple of percentage points to the overall market, the majority of retail isn't from here, it's accounted for by the likes of pension fund managers.


Quoting nasir.khan
When a news item comes out market moves 10-30 pips, before HFT retail and other human traders could have a piece of that now its impossible to jump ahead of HFT. That's one example of how HFT effects retail.

Retail is an important part of forex market for the liquidity they bring in a very illiquid market. Anyone who think of forex a 5 tril a day market needs a bucket of cold water thrown on them.

60-70% of that quoted volume is hot-potato trading, rest you divide on 20 odd major currency pairs, by 24 for liquidity in an hour, by 60 for...
Moreover out of the very high percentage of losers in FX, cd be as high as 99% don't win year on year, the vast majority of those losses (made by the losers) are down to trader failings which is not as a result of any others trading methods such as front running.


Quoting Squeeze
Retail order routing has always been at the bottom of the food chain, always was and always will be. HFT doesn't 'steal' out of the mouths of retail traders, the brokers (nicking a pip on every order you make) and banks do that. The retail trade represented by the likes of you and the rest of the contributors on FF only adds a couple of percentage points to the overall market, the majority of retail isn't from here, it's accounted for by the likes of pension fund managers.
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
Quoting Squeeze
Retail order routing has always been at the bottom of the food chain, always was and always will be. HFT doesn't 'steal' out of the mouths of retail traders, the brokers (nicking a pip on every order you make) and banks do that. The retail trade represented by the likes of you and the rest of the contributors on FF only adds a couple of percentage points to the overall market, the majority of retail isn't from here, it's accounted for by the likes of pension fund managers.
If a retail trader or anyone else for that matter cant take responsibility of his action and looses and blames brokers and HFT etc they should not even go near a real money account.

I dont have any problem with how HFT's or anyone conduct their business, they are not responsible for my losses and if anyone can stop me from making money that would be "me". Do HFT's and bigger participants have any advantage over me? Yes Information and Technological advantage, but again that is something we have to live with and can even take advantage of their disadvantages (size, time).

Though the rules of speculation are as old as hills, the industry keeps evolving and a traders need to also evolve with it or left out.

The only problem i have with you is that you keep comparing retail to a grain of sand in a desert. you think 200-300B of daily volume is not important to bigger players. Sharks dont eat sharks! they need smaller fish to stay alive. The whole point of letting the little guy access Forex was for the liquidity (if not his money) he brings not just one guy but a whole pool (just like a shark hitting a herd).

There are 7206 Lots on short side in EURUSD at the moment on myfxbook, if my math is right and these are std lots, thats 720 millon. In a single community, Not including other communities, not including traders who have serious funds and never expose themselves to these social aggregating sites.and these are all small retail traders (i dont think pension funds use myfxbook).

If you combine all the above traders, and they decide to close their positions at once, would their orders just go through and die in the servers of their brokers and no one would even notice?

Thats what you have been implying!
.
Sometimes I just have to laugh. Trading is a zero sum gain, if it's not making you money then most likely it's costing you money, and HFT is surely not making me any money. The fact that someone can believe that HFT and retail exist in a different world is not only a foolish, it's also very ignorant of the way the market works.

HFT affect the price and anything that affects the price affects anyone, don't even talk about where orders are being filled that is against the point because we all need to buy from somewhere. Sometimes I am amazed at the kind of nonsense that is posted here as fact.

It's the same thing as people with there biases that say scalpers don't make any money, and that is another bullshit statement. When these HFT algos hit the market and buy or sell, if your order is at the level where they are being filled then they take your money regardless if you are retail or whoever.

I say this all the time and I am serious, I wish I could sit and trade in ignorance like most people but maybe that's why most retailers fail.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
Your cognitive biases, cognitive dissonance and confusion are affecting your ability to think straight and rationalise the situation correctly. I have to chuckle at the couple of hundred dollar accounts on here with their zero experience and close on zero knowledge pontificating over issues they're clueless over.


Quoting saneblane
Sometimes I just have to laugh. Trading is a zero sum gain, if it's not making you money then most likely it's costing you money, and HFT is surely not making me any money. The fact that someone can believe that HFT and retail exist in a different world is not only a foolish, it's also very ignorant of the way the market works.

HFT affect the price and anything that affects the price affects anyone, don't even talk about where orders are being filled that is against the point because we all need to buy from somewhere. Sometimes I am amazed at...
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
Aren't demo accounts valid on the likes of Myfxbook?


Quoting nasir.khan
If a retail trader or anyone else for that matter cant take responsibility of his action and looses and blames brokers and HFT etc they should not even go near a real money account.

I dont have any problem with how HFT's or anyone conduct their business, they are not responsible for my losses and if anyone can stop me from making money that would be "me". Do HFT's and bigger participants have any advantage over me? Yes Information and Technological advantage, but again that is something we have to live with and can even take advantage of their...
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
"Your cognitive biases, cognitive dissonance and confusion are affecting your ability to think straight and rationalise the situation correctly. I have to chuckle at the couple of hundred dollar accounts on here with their zero experience and close on zero knowledge pontificating over issues they're clueless over."

????? Just more nonsense. Adding nothing of substance to the conversation. FF has a lot of people who give advice who have been trading for years and still break even we all know it. So if you have something to say, say it and stop peddling nonsense.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
You're chasing your tail going around in circles offering nothing new to the debate here, simply defending the position of retail for your own bizarre reasons. As has been stated several times by me and others brokers and banks take the chump change of retail not HFT. Take away HFT and retail would still lose nearly all of its funds to brokers and banks. Now you and others can point to the minutiae where HFT can in theory and arguably in practice affect the FX market but its impact on retail trading that's done on 'ere is as close to zero to be statistically zero.


Quoting nasir.khan
If a retail trader or anyone else for that matter cant take responsibility of his action and looses and blames brokers and HFT etc they should not even go near a real money account.

I dont have any problem with how HFT's or anyone conduct their business, they are not responsible for my losses and if anyone can stop me from making money that would be "me". Do HFT's and bigger participants have any advantage over me? Yes Information and Technological advantage, but again that is something we have to live with and can even take advantage of their...
There's a lot wrong with your post, in particular attempting to take the intellectual high ground when really you don't have any direct experience of what you're attempting to discuss and most of what you're bringing up has already been answered several times. Trading is not nec. a zero sum game you need to dyor on that. As for scalpers no, IMO they're aren't any retail scalpers of any significant number if at all using their mt4 or equivalent platforms making any money out of FX. It's hard enough scalping through platforms such as Autobahn or through EBS.


Quoting saneblane
Sometimes I just have to laugh. Trading is a zero sum gain, if it's not making you money then most likely it's costing you money, and HFT is surely not making me any money. The fact that someone can believe that HFT and retail exist in a different world is not only a foolish, it's also very ignorant of the way the market works.

HFT affect the price and anything that affects the price affects anyone, don't even talk about where orders are being filled that is against the point because we all need to buy from somewhere. Sometimes I am amazed at...
"Now you and others can point to the minutiae where HFT can in theory and arguably in practice affect the FX market"

That's the only thing you said that made any sense. But not this in theory nonsense, it affects the market and in turn affect retailers. At least have the balls to correct yourself properly and not no half way shit.

"Take away HFT and retail would still lose nearly all of its funds to brokers and banks. Now you and others can point to the minutiae where HFT can in theory and arguably in practice affect the FX market but its impact on retail trading that's done on 'ere is as close to zero to be statistically zero."

That's the issue with you, you seem to think that only banks and brokers trade the market, also you should realize that not all retailers fail right? I am one of them that haven't fail, so whose money do I take?
Let me explain what trading is in basic term, it's taking on risk for future gains, but you have HFT that take on virtually zero risk (in my opinion) because winning 1000 straight days of trading when you're make millions of trade or thousands to me is virtually Zero. And You are in a market where bankers win, Brokers win and HFT win virtually all the time. And you say this has no impact on retail?

"IMO they're aren't any retail scalpers of any significant number if at all using their mt4 or equivalent platforms making any money out of FX"

Didn't you hear?? Retailers lose money no matter which method they employ so what's the point of picking out scalpers, I understand spread is harder and slippage impacts more down there but that's a fact of life? you can make money trading any method in Forex point blank. I am not a scalper anyway but just trying t dispell many of the nonsense that other "retailers" like to peddle around here.

And for me to gain money someone has to lose money somewhere, whether they lose a lot or lose less it's still losing. Can't believe I had to post something as basic as that.

And I am not talking from a position of anything, I am a student and will remain one even after 50 years of trading, the issue I have is people like yourself that believe they have arrived somewhere, where they cannot learn anything else.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
Sigh, there's a couple of minutes of my life I won't get back. Let's leave it there shall we, good luck with your apprenticeship, I hope the compounding myth works for you.


Quoting saneblane
"Now you and others can point to the minutiae where HFT can in theory and arguably in practice affect the FX market"

That's the only thing you said that made any sense. But not this in theory nonsense, it affects the market and in turn affect retailers. At least have the balls to correct yourself properly and not no half way shit.

"Take away HFT and retail would still lose nearly all of its funds to brokers and banks. Now you and others can point to the minutiae where HFT can in theory and arguably in practice affect the FX market but its...
Great thread! Kind of xbox live catty at times, but some good info exchanges.

I do like the comments regarding the pecking order of trading. Retail, as many noted, is the end of the food chain...the bottom of the food chain...Just know your place, and trade it accordingly.

Its
just
that
easy
And trading as a retailer has never been cheaper or faster and yet still the vast majority can't pick up pennies in front of the steam roller. What does that tell us wrt the impact of HFT, which might as well be traded on the new earth like planet Kepler 186f that's just been discovered, for all the negative affect it has on retail traders at this end of the market.


Quoting pippiphooray
Great thread! Kind of xbox live catty at times, but some good info exchanges.

I do like the comments regarding the pecking order of trading. Retail, as many noted, is the end of the food chain...the bottom of the food chain...Just know your place, and trade it accordingly.

Its
just
that
easy
Quoting Spreadbetter
Aren't demo accounts valid on the likes of Myfxbook?
http://www.myfxbook.com/community/outlook

at the end of the page it says;

"Data is based on verified, real accounts only and refreshed every 60 seconds."
Quoting Squeeze
You're chasing your tail going around in circles offering nothing new to the debate here, simply defending the position of retail for your own bizarre reasons. As has been stated several times by me and others brokers and banks take the chump change of retail not HFT. Take away HFT and retail would still lose nearly all of its funds to brokers and banks. Now you and others can point to the minutiae where HFT can in theory and arguably in practice affect the FX market but its impact on retail trading that's done on 'ere is as close to zero to be...
5 years on FF and i have never argued this long and its cause of people like you who will never admit the ignorance of statements they make in a rush of blood.

I have only posted some basic and logical math and stats, which btw could be complete BS but you of course would't have a clue about it except the 4 trillion a day market that uninformed traders like you have been throwing around since eternity. You have not countered even one point out of my posts, with a single figure or number.

i have made 2 posts and i am made out to be the one chasing my tail in circles comparing to your 9 posts.
I hope the compounding myth works for you"

Hahahaha Unreal, Myth you say? Sometimes I just cannot believe the kinds of things that are post here.

nasir.khan Went more in dept than I was willing too because I saw it was a waste of time from the get go. All I can say is good luck trading and may the pip be with you, I'm outter here.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
Nothing I do is ever in a rush of blood, particularly where trading and trading matters are concerned, I'm increbidly accurate and dilligent, it goes with the job and territory.

I'm not going to counter each one of your points because I really couldn't be bothered as neither you or your views interest me enough, I've read your type of one dimensional tub thumping countless times on here.

You have your position, that you seem bizarrely wedded to for all the reasons that obviously matter to you. You pick up your pay chq and I'll pick up mine, that works for me, let's leave it there.


Quoting nasir.khan
5 years on FF and i have never argued this long and its cause of people like you who will never admit the ignorance of statements they make in a rush of blood.

I have only posted some basic and logical math and stats, which btw could be complete BS but you of course would't have a clue about it except the 4 trillion a day market that uninformed traders like you have been throwing around since eternity. You have not countered even one point out of my posts, with a single figure or number.

i have made 2 posts and i am made out to be the one...
Good luck with the compounding...

Quoting saneblane
I hope the compounding myth works for you"

Hahahaha Unreal, Myth you say? Sometimes I just cannot believe the kinds of things that are post here.

nasir.khan Went more in dept than I was willing too because I saw it was a waste of time from the get go. All I can say is good luck trading and may the pip be with you, I'm outter here.
Quoting saneblane
HFT affect the price and anything that affects the price affects anyone
don't worry mate, squeeze tends to categorize all hft'ing into the same "front-running market is rigged" discription he learned from michael lewis's media crazed scare tactic book headlines. He's yet to realize, or at least clearify, that using the word "affect on retail" can have multiple meanings and as also there are many different types of hft'ing algo, not just the front running types he's heard about from recent articles in the aftermath of lewis 60min interview where individual retail trades are not affected because they don't hit the market until the broker packages them up and deals them out in bulk.

There are many ways hft'ing type algos have both a positive and negative affect in the retail forex industry. The most obvious positive affect, lower spreads, to the most obvious negative affect, flash crashes and increase of correlations (vulnerable to systemic shock).

Inbetween the obvious, hft'ing algorithms that read and trade headlines /calendar events within miliseconds causing daily ranges to be reached within minutes then consolidating in a very tight range for a significant period of time until the VWAP and moving averages start to catch up to the price action. Time weighted algos that bang the close and pop the open (so there's no high or low wick, just open and close) Spoofing and quote stuffing which gives false impression of high demand, drawing unsuspecting buyers or sellers in, allowing the algo to buy or sell at a better price. Hft'ing algorithm strategies that are programmed to use retail Speculative Sentiment index as a contrarian indicator to price action trading against the majority of retail traders when price is trending... just to name a few

I'm not complaining, traders lose because of their own bad habbits and should learn to adapt and overcome to changing circumstances. But obviously there are types of hft'ing that can and do affect individual retail trading strategies either directly or indirectly.
Btw people also need to rewire about how they categorize participants in the market especially if your try make money based on mass psychology.

Is starts with speculation/investment/gambling and utility.

First group bets on future prices based on the information they have (tech,fundy whatever).

2nd group use the market as a utility to hedge future risk of volatility in prices that can be on their business. (export/imports, farming etc)


The first groups performance in the market is dependent upon the quality of the information and time it take them to get the information plus the execution.

that group is divided into informed and uninformed participants, a retail trader could be as good as any fund or bank at a given day based on information he has same goes for every other participant but it does not mean he will be do it every day. A fund can loose money one day but it does not mean they are stupid.

someone walks into the room and says " hey fellas 99% retail loose anyway".. now he might be very correct statically but he also gives away his "game"

You need to stick your head of your charts at any given day or week and think about what informed trader and doing what uninformed traders are doing. You will experience something you never did before.

Thats all i can say in a news thread discussion if anyone is serious about it they should go and read some research papers and books on market microstructure and participants.
.
You think I 'learned' about HFT through media scare stories and a book that I lambasted immediately upon its publication? Dear oh dear.


Quoting blank
don't worry mate, squeeze tends to categorize all hft'ing into the same "front-running market is rigged" discription he learned from michael lewis's media crazed scare tactic book headlines. He's yet to realize, or at least clearify, that using the word "affect on retail" can have multiple meanings and as also there are many different types of hft'ing algo, not just the front running types he's heard about from recent articles in the aftermath of lewis 60min interview where individual retail trades are not affected because they don't hit the market...
And where would you catergorise yourself, informed?


Quoting nasir.khan
Btw people also need to rewire about how they categorize participants in the market especially if your try make money based on mass psychology.

Is starts with speculation/investment/gambling and utility.

First group bets on future prices based on the information they have (tech,fundy whatever).

2nd group use the market as a utility to hedge future risk of volatility in prices that can be on their business. (export/imports, farming etc)


The first groups performance in the market is dependent upon the quality of the information and...
P.S: Did anyone notice that HFT do not fit in any of the market participants category i listed above?

so what are they doing in the market?

They are not using market for exporting Honda's, they are not taking risk betting on future prices, they are not facilitating liquidity for the rest of us instead they are taking it away by jumping ahead of us.

how did they managed to justify their existence in the market is something to ponder about.
.
Quoting Squeeze
And where would you catergorise yourself, informed?
on Sundays.
"they are not facilitating liquidity for the rest of us"

Remember that was the argument they made for being in the stock market, but since the Forex Market is already liquid they cannot peddle such tripe so easily. That's the whole thing I have been trying to get across for so long. I went on a short weekend vacation and was shocked that this debate was still going on.

They only take money from the market, the successful ones carry almost no risk. The game is rigged in their favor, We all know brokers and Banks cheat us already, but the answer shouldn't be one more wouldn't hurt.

It's just amazes me sometimes. Never mind that ALgoes make up more than 35 percent of all trades in the market today. 35 percent that's 1/3 and people still say retail are in some bubble. The fact remains that these things are money vacuums, the only reason the public is hearing about it now is because they are stepping on some important toes, but they do not discriminate they just suck money from the market period. Banks are into HFT too so It defies me how people can say things like that. You ever wonder how HFT could exist in forex with no centralization? if you can answer that then you would get to why this is another tool meant to slaughter unexpected.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
Yes the discussion should have ended several posts ago as it had nowhere to go. Do you accept that the type of retail traders on FF in many ways operate in a disconnected highly synthetic loop between brokers who peddle the ECN/STP marketing scam and the banks?


Quoting saneblane
"they are not facilitating liquidity for the rest of us"

Remember that was the argument they made for being in the stock market, but since the Forex Market is already liquid they cannot peddle such tripe so easily. That's the whole thing I have been trying to get across for so long. I went on a short weekend vacation and was shocked that this debate was still going on.

They only take money from the market, the successful ones carry almost no risk. The game is rigged in their favor, We all know brokers and Banks cheat us already, but the answer...
Quoting blank
There are many ways hft'ing type algos have both a positive and negative affect in the retail forex industry. The most obvious positive affect, lower spreads, to the most obvious negative affect, flash crashes and increase of correlations (vulnerable to systemic shock).
on HFT's reason for tighter spreads,

From a supply/demand and orderflow structure perspective/logic,

Spread is dependent upon depth/liq of the market, more orders waiting in line > more depth/liq thus the tighter the spreads.

but HFT use the latent orders. The order is not present in the market as available liquidity to other participants but rather its just a line of code that if this then this or that (just simplifying it for the sake of the discussion). So the HFT orders are never in the books but its there to get the paycheck without any work or risk and never supply any liq but taking it.

take it the other way around, there are orders in market but they are opened and deleted in milliseconds enticing the other participants to fall in the trap even for 10th of a pip and again this does not does supply liq and help tightend the spreads.

so from my limited knowledge i donot see the argument of HFT supplying liq/tightening the spread in any way. Though i am open to any new information that could make me think other way.
.
"Do you accept that the type of retail traders on FF in many ways operate in a disconnected highly synthetic loop between brokers who peddle the ECN/STP marketing scam and the banks?"

Maybe, but I fail to see the relevance. The question is not whether Retailers have an effect on the market, it's whether HFT has an effect on the market. It's been widely known that people act almost the same when it comes to greed and fear, and looking at the same chart would almost certainly produce the same responses, so it matters not where you buy money, you can fall for the same smoke and mirrors that appear on the chart. Who takes your money when the chart goes against you is not important someone is going to take your money regardless. We trade the markets, and the market trade people (crowd behavior)

I can buy unleveraged currency on vacation and still be affected by HFT. The price is what determines the value between currencies and anything that can move the price would affect anyone. I think you are confusing the subject.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
Quoting saneblane
I think you are confusing the subject.
you think?

looking at amount of news comments we have posted since our existence on FF, we wasted a lot of bullets today.
.
You can't see the relevance of that statement in relation to the type of retail trading the vast majority of FF traders indulge in and more importantly what they do it on and who with and through? Have a think about it after all this discussion is surely about the effect HFT has on FX retail trading, not the minor negative effect it has on the wider FX industry.


Quoting saneblane
"Do you accept that the type of retail traders on FF in many ways operate in a disconnected highly synthetic loop between brokers who peddle the ECN/STP marketing scam and the banks?"

Maybe, but I fail to see the relevance. The question is not whether Retailers have an effect on the market, it's whether HFT has an effect on the market. It's been widely known that people act almost the same when it comes to greed and fear, and looking at the same chart would almost certainly produce the same responses, so it matters not where you buy money, you...
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
"You can't see the relevance of that statement in relation to the type of retail trading the vast majority of FF traders indulge in and more importantly what they do it on and who with and through? Have a think about it after all this discussion is on surely about the effect HFT has on FX retail trading not the minor effect it has on the wider FX industry."

You do know banks have HFT going on too right? Like I said it matters not, one way or another you are going to get hit by it. Price Manipulation is what HFT are operating on, I think that should explains itself, in Forex where price is everything. HFT is a tool not a standalone buggy man in the corner, and it is used against all of us. Lol if you think you're safe then I have 5 bridges to sell.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
"looking at amount of news comments we have posted since our existence on FF, we wasted a lot of bullets today"

Lol I got sucked in man, I hardly post on here and now I know why.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
I recall reading this a couple of years back. The executive summary is quite fascinating, particularly the reference to section 6

Section 6 concludes with the lessons learned so far and issues for further consideration:

• Market functioning: HFT has had a marked impact on the functioning of the FX market in ways that could be seen as beneficial in normal times. HFT helps to distribute liquidity across the decentralised market, improving efficiency, and has narrowed spreads. But the introduction of HFT to the market has affected the ecology of the FX market in ways that are not yet fully understood. Questions remain about HFT participants’ willingness to provide liquidity on a sustained basis under different market conditions.

While HFT generates increased activity and narrower spreads in normal times, it may have reduced the resilience of the system as a whole in stressed times by reducing the activity of traditional market participants (eg major market-maker banks) who may have otherwise been an important stabilising presence in volatile environments. That said, recent experience suggests that HFT participants are not necessarily flightier than traditional participants in times of market stress and may be quicker to re-enter the market as it stabilises. Furthermore, the market infrastructure itself, such as the various electronic trading platforms, is also changing in reaction to the growth of HFT and is likely to have a significant impact on how different market participants execute trades over time.

http://www.bis.org/publ/mktc05.pdf
Yes, you're out of your depth. Run along..there's compounding to be done..

Quoting saneblane
"looking at amount of news comments we have posted since our existence on FF, we wasted a lot of bullets today"

Lol I got sucked in man, I hardly post on here and now I know why.
"Yes, you're out of your depth. Run along..there's compounding to be done"

Yep I am out of my dept alright, you dept is some place else. To joke and belittle something as basic as compounding is crazy and now I understand why HFT is tripping you up. Bruce Kovner compounded the 3000 dollars he borrowed on his credit card and is worth billions today, but some unknown like yourself on the net thinks he knows more than him and Benjamin Franklin. Hahaha I have to thank FF you guys sure put on a good show.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
I thought you were "outta here"? You don't really think you'll compound your way to riches do you? Fuckin hell where do you zombies come from? Top fukcwittery, nicely done. Btw I've read the posts of squeeze, seems right on the money to me but then again his trading experience pre dates the internet.


Quoting saneblane
"Yes, you're out of your depth. Run along..there's compounding to be done"

Yep I am out of my dept alright, you dept is some place else. To joke and belittle something as basic as compounding is crazy and now I understand why HFT is tripping you up. Bruce Kovner compounded the 3000 dollars he borrowed on his credit card and is worth billions today, but some unknown like yourself on the net thinks he knows more than him and Benjamin Franklin. Hahaha I have to thank FF you guys sure put on a good show.
"The meek shall inherit the earth.." Yeah right, good luck with that shit..
  • Comment #79
  • Quote
  • Edited Apr 22, 2014 11:52am Apr 21, 2014 10:37pm | Edited Apr 22, 2014 11:52am
"I thought you were "outta here"? You don't really think you'll compound your way to riches do you? Fuckin hell where do you zombies come from?"

You really are an idiot, did I say that i was going to be a billionaire? It's idiots like you who keep going around in circles and being wrong all day. it was an example to show what compounding can do. Like the old saying goes, aint no fool like and old fool. I didn't even think anyone would argue compounding in this day and age, but FF is filled with traders who can't hit a winning streak for shit so they blame compounding. Unreal.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
Quoting Greenstar
http://youtu.be/GEAGdwHXfLQ
"The Wall Street Code" - this is so good it has to be posted in case someone who would enjoy it missed it.
Excellent video.
Sp500 199.71 next hit after hit strong in 1910.83
Quoting Greenstar
http://youtu.be/GEAGdwHXfLQ
"The Wall Street Code" - this is so good it has to be posted in case someone who would enjoy it missed it.
thank you watched it and it gives good understanding of what these guys are going.
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  • Posted: Apr 17, 2014 9:11pm
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