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  • Why A Swiss Proposal To Give Every Citizen $2,800 Each Month Is So Radical

    From businessinsider.com

    Switzerland has a very direct style of democracy. For example, changes to the constitution, or "popular initiatives," can be proposed by members of the public and are voted on if more than 100,000 people sign them. If a majority of voters and cantons (Swiss states) agree, the change can be come law. This system not only allows individual citizens a high degree of control of their laws, but also means that more unorthodox ideas become referendum issues. Recently, there has been a spate of popular initiatives designed to curb inequality in the country. Earlier this year Swiss voters agreed to an idea proposed by ... (full story)

Can you imagine what the response would be in the US or other western democracies?
Quoting Deano9999
Can you imagine what the response would be in the US or other western democracies?
Deano, you forget! Here in the states, you get free healthcare, EBT (food assistance), low rent housing... that's equates more than enough for the lower income individual.

Unfortunately, it's more than $2,800 a year and it takes up resources for those kinda making it through life but barely.

US debt in 2008: 9,839 trillion
US debt in 2013: 16.934 trillion
US debt in 2017 est: 20.695 trillion

We can't afford that shite!
I know, BUT the Swiss have those as well and intend to give this handout on top! I wonder if I can parlay my Swiss bank account into a passport!
I'd like to know how Daniel can justify this as not being Govt expenditure because it goes direct to the public.

Can I do this little trick with my mortgage because I never see that money in my account?
Pip Anon, are you living in some alternate-reality America? We don't get free health care in the one I live in! Next year we'll be forced to buy health insurance, but that's not free by any means. So what do you mean we get free healthcare?

Also, do you actually know any lower income individuals? I know quite a few and none of them are actually getting enough help to survive, let alone "more than enough." If what we're giving them is costing more than $2800 per person per month (note that the article is talking about $2800/month not per year - so of course we spend more than that per year), wouldn't we then save bundles of money by just scrapping EBT, low-rent housing, etc. and just giving them the $2800? So it seems to me that we can't NOT afford to make some changes like those being proposed in Switzerland.
Well - I'm afraid that all these "stimuli" are just putting borrowed life from one basket to the other. To improve personal wealth one must seek for assets, not reduced liabilities.
Very interesting article: http://www.project-syndicate.org/com...ns-werner-sinn

Not necessarily about this topic but magnetizing debt.
  •  Guest
  • | IP XX.XX.147.115
I like the idea of a national birthright fund paid for by the income from use and sale of government property. Everything we take from our public lands are resources our children will need in the future and not have. Setting aside $100 a month for each citizen from the day they are born would cost $78,000 by the time they are 65. At 5% compounded they would have $600,000 upon which to retire. Rather than extracting oil, coal, gas, minerals, trees, etc. from our public land to pay for wars or to make the taxes of the rich less and the profits of the Kochs and Exxons higher, give the income instead to our future generations. This would cost 1200 x 4 million the first year, or 4.8 billion. Given we just gave Mitch 3 billion to open the government, hardly a blip on the radar.
Setting aside $100 a month for each citizen from the day they are born would cost $78,000 by the time they are 65. At 5% compounded they would have $600,000 upon which to retire.

Great idea except that Governments can't be trusted to not touch the money when they runout. Its just too easy to raid and blame everyone but themselves. Just no way to guarantee.
[A democracy] can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury.
Let's see how that translates over in the US, which would mean that it would cost 10-12 trillion dollars a year to subsidize every citizen. There is absolutely no way that this is in any way affordable. Such a policy would be political suicide even if every entitlement program was eliminated. Capital and human flight from 60% of the populace would take place.

Also keep in mind, the proven corruption and incompetence of government.
Us Swiss also give free government sponsored drugs to addicts. Helps to cut down on crime and keeps druggies of the streets. Sounds radical, but it works.

Switzerland can afford it tbh...so why not help the population as a whole?
To the uber rich, the people that amassed their wealth to the point that they could not spend it in 50 of their life times. To them this bickering amongst the middle class, the working class, the schmucks, must be quite entertaining.
They're hilarious. May I recommend free Toblerone and a nice Omega watch when they come of age.
1/3 of Swiss GNP but he says it's not a government expenditure. lol He's wackier than the Democrats here. With a decent livable income guaranteed why work? Or if you get bored and do take a job why show up on time Monday morning or stay on Friday afternoon? Heck, a break on hump day sounds nice too. Get fired - so what. Still have a decent livable income. Ok, that's enough reality for today.
Quoting gat
1/3 of Swiss GNP but he says it's not a government expenditure. lol He's wackier than the Democrats here. With a decent livable income guaranteed why work? Or if you get bored and do take a job why show up on time Monday morning or stay on Friday afternoon? Heck, a break on hump day sounds nice too. Get fired - so what. Still have a decent livable income. Ok, that's enough reality for today.
Guess what most people will do with that money...spend it. So it will have a positive impact on GDP. Definitely a better impact than pretty much all of the other stuff government would use that money for otherwise.

Also, keep in mind, Switzerland has a budget surplus...again.
Correct, it's not zero sum.

Quoting 4exNinja
Guess what most people will do with that money...spend it. So it will have a positive impact on GDP. Definitely a better impact than pretty much all of the other stuff government would use that money for otherwise.

Also, keep in mind, Switzerland has a budget surplus...again.
Where does government get that money? From the people. So it moves more money around faster feeding inflation. That's the best result.

But the idea ignores human nature which is to sloth. We walk one side of the block not around three to get to the next corner. That is the smart side of laziness. But as more figure out their low level job gains them little in life style motivation is lost. Their numbers increase and surplus would disappear. It might work in Switzerland but not where there is already a large social safety net fed underclass. Only has taken 50 years for the US to go from a positive work ethic with strong family structure to our present weakness.

Think all the "helpful" socialism larded onto our capitalism has not corroded society? Look at the divorce rate, out of wedlock birth rate, numbers on food stamps, etc. Blacks here used to be lower than whites. Go figure.
Quoting Spreadbetter
Correct, it's not zero sum.
The mere fact that people will actually spend that money and therefore stimulate the economy makes this a good thing. I can't think of much the government could spend it on that would have a better effect on the economy. Buying fighter planes does less for example...
Quoting gat
Where does government get that money? From the people. So it moves more money around faster feeding inflation. That's the best result.

But the idea ignores human nature which is to sloth. We walk one side of the block not around three to get to the next corner. That is the smart side of laziness. But as more figure out their low level job gains them little in life style motivation is lost. Their numbers increase and surplus would disappear. It might work in Switzerland but not where there is already a large social safety net fed underclass....
Just fyi, the safety net in Switzerland is already better than what they have in the US.

For example: If I lose my job in Switzerland, I get 80% of my last salary until I find a new job...and that's for up to 2 full years! I was never worried about losing a job in Switzerland. Here in the UK on the other hand...don't get me started
Of course without an air force someone could decide to take what the Swiss have while they retreat to their defensive caves. Good thing the US has been a sucker providing the defense for Europe since WW2. Look at Jane's for the fearsome German navy etc. Only the Brit's could present any strength without US.

Which Euro country was it that reduced the unemployment benefits from two years to one and found people getting jobs a year earlier? Then they reduced the time again and like magic same effect.

Why would a retail store clerk getting crap from customers like Oprah care about the #@## job, or a burger flipper care if it burns? Perhaps the Swiss are better people like we used to be. But victim groups and/or multiculturalism make a gift into an deserved obligation in their minds. That is what the oh so compassionate Democrats teach them. (I'm Libertarian) England and France are weaker for their growing Muslim populations among other things. We have Muslims, blacks, homosexuals, females all self identifying as victims. The Swiss are pretty homogenous so peer pressure to work probably outweighs other forces. Being a small population also makes it harder for a problem person to remain under the radar.
  •  Guest
  • | IP XX.XXX.177.32
Quoting gat
Of course without an air force someone could decide to take what the Swiss have while they retreat to their defensive caves. Good thing the US has been a sucker providing the defense for Europe since WW2. Look at Jane's for the fearsome German navy etc. Only the Brit's could present any strength without US.

Which Euro country was it that reduced the unemployment benefits from two years to one and found people getting jobs a year earlier? Then they reduced the time again and like magic same effect.

Why would a retail store clerk getting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Air_Force

Inserted Video


Switzerland is not the best place for an attack....

Inserted Video
not bad...

Inserted Video
The Swiss are pretty homogenous so peer pressure to work probably outweighs other forces. Being a small population also makes it harder for a problem person to remain under the radar.

not so fast:

http://www.swissuniversity.ch/living-lifestyle.htm
Switzerland is less homogenous than the US if you count foreigners as a % of the population...especially in cities like Zurich, Basel and Geneva. Every time I go back I hear more and more English, French and other languages.

As for pretending Muslims are to blame for issues in the UK and US...Switzerland has the same % of Muslims as the UK and 3.5% more than the US. We also have a higher % of foreigners as a % of the population than both those countries. So please, stop it with the racist anti-multiculturalism nonsense.

As for the military, it's a massive waste of money. Why one earth does one of the smallest country need one of the largest armies on the planet? For crying out loud, we have 3.5m soldiers if needed. It's ridiculous!!

Apart from not coming up with a reason to attack the country, I also have to note that all those mountain bunkers would be a massive headache for enemies. Those would drag out wars for months/years. Lastly, all major highways/bridges are rigged with explosives to this date. More pain than it's worth imo.
  •  Guest
  • | IP XX.XXX.199.117
4 languages are official in Switzerland - French,German,Italian, and a native dialect Romansch. So the Swiss aren't as homogeneous as one might think. Also, Switzerland doesn't go around sticking its nose in other countries' affairs ( like the US does) and thus doesn't need a bloated military budget. The taxes come from the people, so if the people demand some refund, what's wrong with that? A fraction of the US military budget would be more than enough to pay for healthcare. But, sadly, the military won't be cut because the US is a war-mongering nation. But as the federal debt shows, maintaining the military-industrial complex is unsustainable in the long run.
Quoting Guest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Air_Force

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y79nxGbNXSs

Switzerland is not the best place for an attack....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ufkwTM82e4
Only a minority of people keep their guns at home, most store them at barracks.

As for guns reducing crime, that's not the reason we have a low crime rate. It's low because the standard of living is high even for "poor" people. We have little poverty because we look after everyone...yeah, socialism. And we have a lot of social programs that reduce crime. An example of that is us handing out taxpayer funded drugs to addicts to keep 'em off the streets, making sure they don't have to commit crimes to fund their habit.

In short: Making sure people don't have to worry about starving or dying because they can't afford medical care is what keeps crime rates low...not guns!

If guns were responsible for a low crime rate, the US and Somalia would have the lowest rates. Guess what...that's NOT the case
those mountain bunkers would be a massive headache for enemies.

no kidding..

Inserted Video
Quoting TraderPablo
those mountain bunkers would be a massive headache for enemies.

no kidding..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3JbMUUilXk
When I did my service we had US and dutch troops train with us. Fighting in mountains is different from open plains or urban surroundings.

There's a reason the Taliban are able to hold on up in the Afghan mountains against what is arguably the strongest military on the planet. Considering the Swiss have better equipment than the Taliban, I recon attacking Switzerland would be a really dumb move. Yeah, you could easily take border cities...but once you hit the mountain you'd hit a wall for months/years.

When you go hiking, you can spot bunker entrances everywhere in the woods and up in the mountains.

Either way, I can't see any reason for anyone wanting to attack Switzerland. Well, maybe Germany once we kick 'em out of the World Cup in 2014
On a fun note, the Swiss military ran an amusing military exercise recently. They assumed a broke France would invade Switzerland to get its money...and then practiced defence against that.

Once the French got wind of that, they were of course delighted about this.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20130930/swis...ankrupt-french
  • Post #31
  • Quote
  • Edited at 2:46pm Oct 18, 2013 2:32pm | Edited at 2:46pm
Well, maybe Germany once we kick 'em out of the World Cup in 2014 ...to good...;-)


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They're already training....games people play...
something saying to me this cant happen in US or UK even if money was available.
Quoting seaman2
something saying to me this cant happen in US or UK even if money was available.
yes U'r correct with your statement at this time...it is something embedded in history...Swiss as they are called now were under heavy dominance of kingdoms..thus paying taxes from hard earned labor in the fields/mountains....finally they got fed up with the princes and princesses and starter to fight them killing them knights and more...the rest is history,,,Castles and Burgen are Museums these days reminding everybody in a nice way what Kingdoms can do for U..(bringing in visitors if maintained)

https://www.google.com/search?q=swis...urgen&tbm=isch

yes William n' Kate ...although nicely smiled at....may make them puke...( sm of them may just shake their heads) ps they will never tell U tough...
Quoting Guest
4 languages are official in Switzerland - French,German,Italian, and a native dialect Romansch. So the Swiss aren't as homogeneous as one might think. Also, Switzerland doesn't go around sticking its nose in other countries' affairs ( like the US does) and thus doesn't need a bloated military budget. The taxes come from the people, so if the people demand some refund, what's wrong with that? A fraction of the US military budget would be more than enough to pay for healthcare. But, sadly, the military won't be cut because the US is a war-mongering...
But as the federal debt shows, maintaining the military-industrial complex is unsustainable in the long run.

Ur are correct...thus special forces n' high tech "gizmos" will fulfill the "needs" for now ....
Quoting Pip Anon
Deano, you forget! Here in the states, you get free healthcare, EBT (food assistance), low rent housing... that's equates more than enough for the lower income individual.

Unfortunately, it's more than $2,800 a year and it takes up resources for those kinda making it through life but barely.

US debt in 2008: 9,839 trillion
US debt in 2013: 16.934 trillion
US debt in 2017 est: 20.695 trillion

We can't afford that shite!

why can't they print and spend ,instate Ben printing it and make banksters richer
Quoting mohan76
why can't they print and spend ,instate Ben printing it and make banksters richer
because deep rooted corruption. There is possibility US is already out of control.
This is going to be the beginning of downfall of the Swiss economy. Free Lunch!? It has never worked. It will never work.
  • Post #38
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  • Edited at 9:54am Oct 19, 2013 9:49am | Edited at 9:54am
Quoting Pip Anon
Deano, you forget! Here in the states, you get free healthcare, EBT (food assistance), low rent housing... that's equates more than enough for the lower income individual.

Unfortunately, it's more than $2,800 a year and it takes up resources for those kinda making it through life but barely.

US debt in 2008: 9,839 trillion
US debt in 2013: 16.934 trillion
US debt in 2017 est: 20.695 trillion

We can't afford that shite!

Easy to afford if the filthy rich paid more taxes.

About 10 years ago it was proposed by the Australian Democrats to pay every working age Australian $25000, a year (the average wage at the time) regardless if they worked or not. If their employment earned more than that the employer would make up the difference. They had completed a number of studies suggesting this would keep the economy moving steadily and end the economic burden of poverty. Sadly, they didn't win Government.
Quoting EventHorizon
Easy to afford if the filthy rich paid more taxes.

About 10 years ago it was proposed by the Australian Democrats to pay every working age Australian $25000, a year (the average wage at the time) regardless if they worked or not. If their employment earned more than that the employer would make up the difference. They had completed a number of studies suggesting this would keep the economy moving steadily and end the economic burden of poverty. Sadly, they didn't win Government.
Filthy rich already pay taxes. What is the incentive of making money if you give it all away. What needs to be done is tax reform.

Who determines that 40-50% of wealthy income must go to the government? Are they to feel sorry because you are not where they are?

The problem is, people focus on how to take money from the 1% instead of how they, themselves, can be the one percent. Quit complaining.

Why does anybody deserve $25k for doing nothing? That's how you prolong economic burden because these people do not product goods and services.

I live in Atlanta, GA. Roughly 20% of the population pay their taxes in Georgia because the other 80% are low-income. Riddle me this, why must I get double taxation on my income (federal and state) for working my ass off just so people who are ill-educated or just don't give a shite get free services on my dime?

You want a population and an economy that produces than take away all the bullshite Democratic welfare.

There is no need to work when there is no incentive. When the government via me stops paying for you powdered milk, you'll work damn hard to feed your family.

I'm tired of these excuses. I'm not rich and sometimes struggle while a student, but by god I will never take a handout if I didn't earn it.

You know what could have kept Australia's economy moving? Diversifying growth outside of mining and not having to rely on China.
Quoting Pip Anon
There is no need to work when there is no incentive. .
There is no incentive if there is no work
Quoting Mingary
There is no incentive if there is no work
The incentive is to find it. The incentive is to be proud and put food on the table for your family, not grab some government hand out because of indolence.

In this economy, beggers can't be choosers. So, if some job may be beneath you or someone why is a government hand out any better?

Let's face it, the vast majority of people on it don't need it or to the degree they have it. Why is it someone can go to the ER with their gov't insurance, get free healthcare while rockin' an iPhone and Jordans? It happens all the time.

My grandfather lived through the real Great Depression, and when he was alive would yell out "you bastards ain't got any idea what's a depression." That man busted his ass to help his family from the time he was 5. When he was 17 he sent out west to help build the railroad. He made $1 a week. Would keep .25 and save .75. Worked his entire life raising 7 kids and never bitched about it.

The problem is this generation is to feckin soft. When you struggle, you'll find a way. But when you can have the government allow you to live comfy there is no point.
Quoting Pip Anon
The incentive is to find it. The incentive is to be proud and put food on the table for your family, not grab some government hand out because of indolence.

In this economy, beggers can't be choosers. So, if some job may be beneath you or someone why is a government hand out any better?

Let's face it, the vast majority of people on it don't need it or to the degree they have it. Why is it someone can go to the ER with their gov't insurance, get free healthcare while rockin' an iPhone and Jordans? It happens all the time.

My grandfather...
I agree particularly with last paragraph.
On a positive though, employers will have to lift the minimum working wage to attract new employees to fill the massive void after all the paper shufflers quit in favour of free money.
lol..
Lol, well wouldn't need to if there was no free candy. Granted, I totally believe wages need to increase....

However, the vast.... vast majority of unemployed are non-skilled, non- or poorly education.

As even a fair businessman, what should I pay someone to flip burgers and make chips?

When your job is saturated with liked-skilled individuals your wage goes down. If someone wants taxi cab drivers to make as much as doctors than moved to Cuba!

In the US and in many other advanced countries, if you have drive, know how and some freakin nuts you can make something of yourself.

On the other hand, if you have a crap attitude, whine and make excuses than "you" belong where you are.

Some are made to be sharks, others catfish. You have the ultimate choice to climb to the top of the food chain or become a bottom feeder
Quoting Pip Anon
Lol, well wouldn't need to if there was no free candy. Granted, I totally believe wages need to increase....

However, the vast.... vast majority of unemployed are non-skilled, non- or poorly education.

As even a fair businessman, what should I pay someone to flip burgers and make chips?

When your job is saturated with liked-skilled individuals your wage goes down. If someone wants taxi cab drivers to make as much as doctors than moved to Cuba!

In the US and in many other advanced countries, if you have drive, know how and some freakin...
Yes I agree, I was joking.
To close the wage gap between freeloaders and burger flippers is dangerous. Why work in a hot foodchain sweatshop, when for 50 cents/hour less you could be taking in the scenery at the beach?
Now I am actually off to the beach with wife and bub before this sun fades away
Lol, oh I was only typing my thoughts. But there is a choice to take the .50 less, which is fine... just don't complain about it :-p
Quoting Pip Anon
Lol, oh I was only typing my thoughts. But there is a choice to take the .50 less, which is fine... just don't complain about it :-p
Well Sydney beaches are damn fine today, so I ain't bitchin'

Quoting Ill-b-back
Well Sydney beaches are damn fine today, so I ain't bitchin'

Lol you know what I mean. Would love to travel to Oz someday soon for sure mate
Quoting Pip Anon
Lol you know what I mean. Would love to travel to Oz someday soon for sure mate
Of course, I only get serious when talking about the Fed or debt or inflation/unemployment or Cable etc.

Oh yeah, and Gold lol.
Sorry about that one.
How rude of me....

I still maintain we are soon approaching the bottom before the next debt squeeze and taper denial pushes it back up.
Cheers dude
Quoting TraderPablo
not bad...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3rBmMdhRds
Same with the Finnish people - history knows that they shouldn't be attacked by ground...
Quoting Pip Anon
Lol you know what I mean. Would love to travel to Oz someday soon for sure mate

bit cloudy here on the sunshine coast but the water is warm
Quoting Pip Anon
Filthy rich already pay taxes. What is the incentive of making money if you give it all away. What needs to be done is tax reform.

Who determines that 40-50% of wealthy income must go to the government? Are they to feel sorry because you are not where they are?

The problem is, people focus on how to take money from the 1% instead of how they, themselves, can be the one percent. Quit complaining.

Why does anybody deserve $25k for doing nothing? That's how you prolong economic burden because these people do not product goods and services.

I...

If someone can afford a 5 Billion dollar yacht, and throw their son a $50,000,000 birthday party, they can afford to pay more tax. This kind of wealth is obscene. And the argument that it will stop incentive is false. Someone who can still make 50 billion a year after a paying more tax is not going to say "that's not enough incentive for me". As Eva Perón said, "there are too many rich people and too many poor people".
  • Post #52
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  • Edited at 8:20am Oct 20, 2013 7:50am | Edited at 8:20am
Quoting Pip Anon
The incentive is to find it. The incentive is to be proud and put food on the table for your family, not grab some government hand out because of indolence.

In this economy, beggers can't be choosers. So, if some job may be beneath you or someone why is a government hand out any better?

Let's face it, the vast majority of people on it don't need it or to the degree they have it. Why is it someone can go to the ER with their gov't insurance, get free healthcare while rockin' an iPhone and Jordans? It happens all the time.

My grandfather...
Your Pollyanna attitude is endearing. Especially if you always wake up after a good night sleep and your house is warm and you have a good meal everyday.
Some people have a shit life and no amount of admonishment that they should "lift themselves by their own bootstrap" is going to help them - if anything it's making them more furious - do you understand why the statement "Let them eat cake" made the peasants really mad during the French revolution ?
You are saying just that with your statement " The problem is this generation is to feckin soft. When you struggle, you'll find a way. "
Even though some people will abuse any type of social security system, some people genuinely and honestly need help. If one day you do not want your house burned down and be the victim of some "wealth redistribution policy" you need to understand this.
Viva La Revolución!
It saddens me to witness how many Americans buy into this enduring American X Factor Dream myth, generation after generation. Do you consider the 'accident of birth' quoitent in your condemning of those less well off or less fortunate?

That kids risking their lives for buttons sewing on buttons in Bangladesh can do nothing to drag themselves out of the sewers of shit they're forced to live in? Or that folk in the USA, UK, Europe may be born into an abusive relationship, or have handicaps that prevent them climbing the ladder that you imagine is there for anyone to climb?

This 'dream and you can do it' bullshit needs to stop, social and psychical mobility, due to the economic policies persued by our neocon/neoliberal masters for the vast majority, have been severely curtailed for the majority over recent decades. If you research it you'll find that the majority in developed economies cannot and do not experience the Will Smith 'Persuit of Happyness' dream, they tend to stay in their socio economic group with a tiny percent rarely being able to change their lives for the better.


Quoting Pip Anon
Lol, well wouldn't need to if there was no free candy. Granted, I totally believe wages need to increase....

However, the vast.... vast majority of unemployed are non-skilled, non- or poorly education.

As even a fair businessman, what should I pay someone to flip burgers and make chips?

When your job is saturated with liked-skilled individuals your wage goes down. If someone wants taxi cab drivers to make as much as doctors than moved to Cuba!

In the US and in many other advanced countries, if you have drive, know how and some freakin...
Quoting Spreadbetter
It saddens me to witness how many Americans buy into this enduring American X Factor Dream myth, generation after generation. Do you consider the 'accident of birth' quoitent in your condemning of those less well off or less fortunate?

That kids risking their lives for buttons sewing on buttons in Bangladesh can do nothing to drag themselves out of the sewers of shit they're forced to live in? Or that folk in the USA, UK, Europe may be born into an abusive relationship, or have handicaps that prevent them climbing the ladder that you imagine...
We need to get feckin real. Is it sad that people sow on buttons in India, yes. But what does that have to do with it? People come to countries like the US and UK for a better life. And I believe there are quite a few Indians in the UK.

Basically, it's just a fecking excuse. Will they all become billionaires? No. But they can better themselves. Dave Thomas was the founder of Wendys fast food restaurants. He never graduated high school and died a millionaire.

So we can cut the boo woo bullshite. I never said they'd all die rich, but they have the ability to do better. How many foreigners flock to the US and UK yearly?

I work in an area that has a high far and middle east population and high Asian population. Clearly they can to the US for a better life.

And perhaps if you didn't already have some sort of retort before reading my full statement, I mentioned this in advanced economies.

There is a reason India is the way it is, Haiti, and African countries. Clearly they do not have the policies to support the growth of their people. That's why they leave.

When I lived in South Florida, Cuban and Haitians would risk their lives to wash up on the shores of the US AND I HAVE FECKIN RESPECT FOR THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO TAKE ACTION AND NOT BITCH AND MOAN ABOUT SHORTCOMINGS.

So, instead of saying "poor me" they do something. My comments were about taking action not inaction.

If you work hard and still come up short I respect you more than those that do nothing and take handouts.
  • Post #55
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  • Edited at 10:25am Oct 20, 2013 10:15am | Edited at 10:25am
Quoting Mingary
Your Pollyanna attitude is endearing. Especially if you always wake up after a good night sleep and your house is warm and you have a good meal everyday.
Some people have a shit life and no amount of admonishment that they should "lift themselves by their own bootstrap" is going to help them - if anything it's making them more furious - do you understand why the statement "Let them eat cake" made the peasants really mad during the French revolution ?
You are saying just that with your statement " The problem is this generation is to feckin...
Dude, if someone needs it, then by all means. Maybe your overly liberal attitude wants to spread everybody else's wealth around and made it hard think about other opinions.

If you dearly need it for survival, then please. My comments were in regards to those that abuse the system. Those that choose to do nothing and take services others need.

So next, instead of reading my comments think about them.
Quoting EventHorizon
If someone can afford a 5 Billion dollar yacht, and throw their son a $50,000,000 birthday party, they can afford to pay more tax. This kind of wealth is obscene. And the argument that it will stop incentive is false. Someone who can still make 50 billion a year after a paying more tax is not going to say "that's not enough incentive for me". As Eva Perón said, "there are too many rich people and too many poor people".
Should we use Holland's policy of 75% tax on the wealth? It is only obscene to those that don't have it. I'm not wealthy, but if they choose to use their money in that way it is after all their money.

I think they should pay taxes, but I also think limiting their deductions to increase the chunk taking out too. Loopholes is what is obscene.

Churchill said "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

Nothing in this world is perfect.
  • Post #57
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  • Edited at 1:35pm Oct 20, 2013 11:52am | Edited at 1:35pm
"I'm not wealthy, but if they choose to use their money in that way it is after all their money."
No, it's not "their choice" to do what they want with 100% of accumulated wealth, because in the process of accumulating it they must have used other's percentages to help secure and connect their own business operations. Now that they are at the top, it's time to help future generations have the same opportunity they were given.
It's called living in an organized democratic society. deal with it.
  • Post #58
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  • Edited at 1:19pm Oct 20, 2013 1:08pm | Edited at 1:19pm
There is plenty of money in USofA to handle all problems. Unfortunately, it is mostly in the hands of the super-rich that caused all the monetary problems to begin with. Well, they and their minions and all the deadbeat US government department heads under the baby Bush administration, where laxness and corruption abounded.

The fix is to repatriatize a good amount of this money. The super-rich got bailed out, which is akin to paying failed bank robbers for at least making a dishonest effort at ill-gotten gain.

Repatriatize the the money thru maybe a decade of whopping estate taxes on the super-rich as well as whopping income taxes on excessive amounts of income, say anything over 2 million a year. For God's sake, how much money does a family need to live on? Is that not enough to support the estates of the super-rich? Well, then tax the estates into destruction.

And, of course, why pay corporate subsidies? And why pay farm subsidies? If enterprises need money, let qualified ones get loans. Face it, why are we paying millions in farm subsidies to congress persons and their families that have farms when they are making enough money as congress persons to be well enough off, even without farms. If the farms are not viable, fold 'em. If they are viable, well a congressperson should qualify for a loan, right? And gee, why are we paying billions in oil industry subsidies when they are the most profitable industry going, and posting record profits?

There is plenty of money in the USofA to solve the problems. The money just needs to be repatriated and redistributed.

Folks need to cease with the bull shit about the poor wanting their piece of the pie, and focus on the real problem, the very rich that have so much money they are able to control legislation to get it favorable to themselves,....that have been gobbling up so much of the pie themselves that there is damn little left for everyone else.

Do you want to see the USofA as a welfare state? Fine. The recognize that the true welfare has been going and continues to go to the super-rich.
  • Post #59
  • Quote
  • Edited at 1:25pm Oct 20, 2013 1:14pm | Edited at 1:25pm
You stated this;

"In the US and in many other advanced countries, if you have drive, know how and some freakin nuts you can make something of yourself. On the other hand, if you have a crap attitude, whine and make excuses than "you" belong where you are. Some are made to be sharks, others catfish. You have the ultimate choice to climb to the top of the food chain or become a bottom feeder"...

It's nonsense, in the USA there's massive underemployment, huge pockets of hidden unemployment, 50 million on food stamps and record amounts of children living in poverty. The vast majority of these 'bottom feeders' as you'd marginalise them want to get on, they can't, the opportunities simply don't exist in the numbers necessary.

Many economic migrants will enjoy a better life in their new country simply by being there, however, the majority are simply taken advantage of by filling extremely low paid, in many circumstances barely legal jobs, that economies at the so called cutting edge of capitalism need to continue to grow by labour exploitation. And the immigrant 'dream' is also peddled as a pernicious myth, those sponsoring and promoting immigration know that the majority of new immigrants will stay at a subsistence level for the period of their working lives upon entry, working their fingers to the bone to enrich their paymasters.

Wrt the one in a billion outlier human who creates a multi billion dollar business let me tell you as someone who has two 'billionaires' as friends they are incredibly unique beings with an X factor that's very difficult to pinpoint, however, both admit to the huge amount of luck their life has enjoyed. Both have charitable foundations that push money towards youth opportunities recognising the damage a poor start in life, through no fault of their own, can have on a child's progress.

I could post more but I fear you're entrenched in your extreme views, my suggestion would be that if you travel to parts of South America, Asia and Africa as a traveller not a cacooned tourist you open your eyes and talk to the indigenous populations, there's many constants they refer to, one is they want education for their children and yet that basic issue, that we in developed countries take as a free birthright in the early years, is out of reach and too expensive for many.

Quoting Pip Anon
We need to get feckin real. Is it sad that people sow on buttons in India, yes. But what does that have to do with it? People come to countries like the US and UK for a better life. And I believe there are quite a few Indians in the UK.

Basically, it's just a fecking excuse. Will they all become billionaires? No. But they can better themselves. Dave Thomas was the founder of Wendys fast food restaurants. He never graduated high school and died a millionaire.

So we can cut the boo woo bullshite. I never said they'd all die rich, but they have...
There were always poor people and incredibly rich people on the other side of the spectrum, but, never have the people in the middle class been so exposed to the propaganda machine called (corporate) media that 24/7 now blames the very poor for the shrinking of middle class. But, all you have to do really is use your cognition and "follow the money"! And where is the money going?! It's increasingly moving (distributing) itself to the top 1% of the wealthiest, regressing our democracy slowly into medieval feudalism.
Talk shop - staring usual suspects - nothing gained and nothing lost - but of course we are all "traders" and we know everything about "the industry" except the next entry, stop and tp. But of course that is what we are working on here What a laugh LOL

BTW: and to those concerned I can only say - as usual. Nice One1
Oh look, the Nigerian scammer can't resist the temptation to derail a thread with his nonsense. He really has gone into defcon 4 hasn't he, must be very desperate for new mugs to send him some pennies. Let me guess, more nonsense because he feels left out of a grown up conversation? Keep shaking the rusty can by the side of the website and the road loser, we get how desperate you must be, but try and keep your trolling to one thread at a time eh?
The trickle up started with Reagan, the Milton Friedman doctrine was then adopted by many other govts. such as the uk under Thatcher.

Quoting backinblackl
There were always poor people and incredibly rich people on the other side of the spectrum, but, never have the people in the middle class been so exposed to the propaganda machine called (corporate) media that 24/7 now blames the very poor for the shrinking of middle class. But, all you have to do really is use your cognition and "follow the money"! And where is the money going?! It's increasingly moving (distributing) itself to the top 1% of the wealthiest, regressing our democracy slowly into medieval feudalism.
Suisse is as near utopia as can be, so any negative notions you may have first ask how did they get there and what are they doing, since they have always been ahead of the curve while all the other countries bicker and moan and indulge on greed and wants they simply cruise on making the rest of us look like neanderthals
well if the 28k bills r going to make it...i'm sure many Swiss will dance...

Inserted Video


but maybe not this one....
Quoting michaelpelly
Same with the Finnish people - history knows that they shouldn't be attacked by ground...
any major attack involving large personnel, in today's world is not a good idea..too costly in many ways...

already other means are in play..(infiltration, Drones, Special Ops taking out Head of Groups..etc.). nasty n' risky business anyway...
Quoting Pip Anon
Deano, you forget! Here in the states, you get free healthcare, EBT (food assistance), low rent housing... that's equates more than enough for the lower income individual.

Unfortunately, it's more than $2,800 a year and it takes up resources for those kinda making it through life but barely.

US debt in 2008: 9,839 trillion
US debt in 2013: 16.934 trillion
US debt in 2017 est: 20.695 trillion

We can't afford that shite!
Yes you are right if only USA stop taking unnecessary responsibilities of other nations, stop ongoing unnecessary wars and also quit upcoming planned wars. It's like digging your own grave while standing on it
Quoting summerdew786
Yes you are right if only USA stop taking unnecessary responsibilities of other nations, stop ongoing unnecessary wars and also quit upcoming planned wars. It's like digging your own grave while standing on it
Maybe, but that would only deal with a small portion of the issue. Social services far surpass defense spending.
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  • | IP XX.XXX.103.39
I think most people commenting on this article is missing the point that $2800/month in Switzerland is not a good income. It's enough to live but it's a bit far from having a good life.

I think this would primarily be aimed to allow those that are without income to keep their dignity and live a modest life until they find a job, and work as an extra for those that already have an income. It's never bad for the economy when people have more money and the Gov always gets a share in taxes whenever anyone buys something (VAT), so...

If it works? I don't know... But Switzerland has high life standards in what concerns to income (and in what concerns to other things too) and their fiscal health is pretty solid so I assume they know what they're doing as they've known what to do to get where they are now.
and if it doesn't work as planned and the Government decides to keep it up anyway...collect 100k signatures for a nationwide referendum ...and find out...no politicians decide for U unlike in the USA...where politicians are literally bought with bribes aka contributions from special interest groups and decide for U....what a disgrace these political arena has become...many individuals here just live outside of it and let the ball role where it may..and think this place needs another revolution...decentralizing Governmental Authority and empowering states..may be a good start... including term limits..for the whole tribe....aka family members...its a royal mess...and if kept up...only God in which they Trust..can help them...
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  • | IP XX.XX.147.115
I think the best procedure is to simply make the government the employer of last resort rather than having a crazy quilt system of programs to provide food, medical care, housing, and subsistence to people who can't find work. The children of the poor will benefit by better socialization and early child care while their mothers help keep the streets, parks and public spaces clean. We should simply admit we have a failed economic system that is no longer capable of producing net private sector jobs at least in this country, and finding meaningful albeit humble jobs for those who are unemployable will necessarily fall to the government. Better that some benefit be extracted for our investment than just promoting idleness though government handouts. Better and cheaper in the long run to just hire the poor and hand them a broom or a shovel, then having the Fed destroying our money in the name of beating the free enterprise system, aka dead horse, to produce jobs that it simply is no longer capable or inclined to do.
Gee, all of a sudden I am agreeing with Pip Anon? What he said!

Makes me rethink all the other things I thought about him...
you all miss the point.

It is all about getting rid of chf longs so they can get rid of peg.

DUH!!
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Pip Anon
sorry , but I have to call you on this one :-(

per annum healthcare in Australia for a family of mum. dad and two boys ?

$AUD 2500

equivalent in the US ? ( the Mother is a US citizen )

$12000,

that is why the Republicans balked at the budget , you CANNOT afford Obamacare..... fullstop , period, finito

it will come come back to destroy the US - mark my words !

strong words from a usually quiet old dog (kiwi )
Wow, this topic is still on the board. One point that has not been discussed from my posts is about the victim groups. Yes, people of different cultures can co-exist among each other but not if one acts like or is a victim group. That is not the case for the Swiss. The Democrats here have sold that status to females, blacks, homosexuals, Hispanics, illegal immigrants, and I'm probably forgetting some. That divides making a nation at war with itself. It tells people they deserve without doing. How is it that the Asians do not buy into it? The yare not in the news, don't protest, and don't kill each other. They just study and work. Media has no use for them.

Someone said free health care for the poor here would cost less than our defense. Not true and realize everyone already got needed care. ObamaCare only rearranges who pays - it does not save money. Let me give you an example of someone I know and ObamaCare. They presently pay close to double what they paid three years ago when the bill was passed in the most shameful manner. Call that X and 2X. The insurance agent told them a subsidy of 4X was available for them. The new ObamaCare policy though will cost 5X. So they will pay X like they did three years ago. And the taxpayers will pay 4X.

Would you donate to a charity that only gets 25% of the donations to the actual aid?
Would you donate to a charity that only gets 25% of the donations to the actual aid?

Isn't that hw Government works..in General..very inefficient...
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  • Posted: Oct 17, 2013 10:30pm
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