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It's A Heart-Mind Game... Are You Ready?

Okay Ha-Pattern, I'm back...chewing on Post 157 some more

Yes, and there's a parallel to your further notes on this: Experienced would-be traders do something similar. They may know the answer to a trade, only not trade it due to extraneous opinions about them in their own life. Insecurities underlie their trading, also,
about how much their contributions: Technical studies that further that field, showing good trading attitudes when winning consistently. Of course, the former may easily exist, the latter rarely.

Please tell me if I got this right...
Also, about how much their contributions (labels) i.e. technical studies further that field (knowing the answer and not trading???). A little fuzzy for me here...Got the part that good trading attitudes = winning consistently (or at least I think I got the point you are making). Also got the message that the former, meaning the trader who knows the answer and doesn't trade easily exists...the consistent winner, rarely.


The central focus for me was that you condition yourself in the market to respond correctly to a certain thread of information from the market
At the same time:
(1) "The tell-tale sign of trading addiction is a trader who cannot refrain from trading--even when markets are objectively offering no opportunity."

Yes and yes to that.


...Only, what is objectivity in trading, except a guess at the future?

I understand the idea behind your point here, but the use of the word "guess" is a little troublesome for me, but very beneficial to the discussion. Here's why:

From The Free Dictionary (.com):

guess (gs)v. guessed, guess·ing, guess·es
v.tr.1. a. To predict (a result or an event) without sufficient information.
b. To assume, presume, or assert (a fact) without sufficient information.

This could be a major reason traders run into problems. Firstly, they feel as though they have to predict which way the market is going to go, rather than wait for the market to "tip its hand": in other words, show its bias. A bias is an inclination to favour one thing (in this case, a direction) over another. A trading edge should reveal/expose the market's bias: what's already there; or what's happening in the "now" moment. Traders make the decision to trade, and many times, actually do place the trade, BEFORE their entry or even exit criteria have been fully met by the market. Since they "own it" at that point, they don't want to give it back, even if they are wrong. If a trader has a real edge that they've tested, they will know when it shows up. They will have sufficient information, and if they don't, they probably shouldn't click. We all know something surprising can happen to change the actual outcome, but, in most cases, traders are not waiting: they're flipping a coin then crossing their fingers, or trying to predict then hoping they were right. That, in my estimation, is not trading. I think that is where many traders miss it.


So an inner challenge is created through addiction, to better one's edge. If it's at the sacrifice of one's profit, then self-acceptance of one's limitations is necessary.
Yes and yes: self-acceptance and limitations where necessary should be the order of the day.

I appreciate the post (and this thread).

Glad you do. Many thanks.

FX4
Got some nuggets here I want to dig out ...


Hmm, 'label' could connect with 'contributions' easily. The specific contribution, that of furthering technical studies, is often perceived as a personal variety equal to others and that programs are the only true better.
Generally, I agree; however, discretionarily-made technical studies often feed improved ways into ea's. Plus, one creating either may publish and share, enabling aware others in position to use them in other fields that would more likely do good than trading. Maybe it's just wish fulfillment, an ego thing, of my own.

Not sure I get your point as you may be intending here.
The rational thoughts is what one ultimately wants to trade with; only, with such an easily-reacted-to environs such as what trading provides, the casing of one's own life can be or feel safer than, say, losing a whole bunch of money in less than a minute, several times in a row after depositing. It can even inspire, as reason can only be a product of that which it responds to, and emotion or imagined scene to emote from, a way to reframe for better trading.

If I can get the missing link in the above portion, then I think the rest should be okay.

Doesn't make it okay, such a habit added on; it can turn reflexive, so preparations to deal with its presence may be necessary for some (if not most).



Much food for thought in your posts. Don't want to miss any part of it.

Thanks again,

FX4
Quoting FX4Newbies
Got some nuggets here I want to dig out ...


Hmm, 'label' could connect with 'contributions' easily. The specific contribution, that of furthering technical studies, is often perceived as a personal variety equal to others and that programs are the only true better.
[b]Generally, I agree; however, discretionarily-made technical studies often feed improved ways into ea's. Plus, one creating either may publish and share, enabling aware others in position to use them in other fields that would more likely do good than trading....
Thanks for your interest in how I write. However,
this is turning into an "addiction to novelty" (1), and I'm fresh out of half-decent ideas.

I also don't have the answer to trading, because I don't make money off it: I'm merely 'different'.
There's lots who (likely, from I can make of their writings,) do, from several of the thread starters in the main commercial forum, to thread leaders and a few of the thread starters in the more popular Interactive Trading (and maybe Trading System (less sure of their)) forum.

Mostly I'm saying this because I'm reverting to use of a concise psychological model I made lots of years ago, a habit which I needed to do for most of the time since then to retest its verity. Also when this happens, I know something's wrong, as the model was borne of conflict.

So are you committing tabula rasa, being socratic, or simply encouraging others to contribute in a stream-of-consciousness way? Because I'm sort of getting lost at this -- I need some direction.

You were talking about emotion rather seriously for a while, and your posts were enlightening to me.
-- Only, I'm not trying to feed you anything.

Wait, here's something, if you're interested. Your thread's title notes about the heart. You started with linking it to emotion, only there's lots of other ways that may connect it to trading.

Well anyway, I feel I'm jabbering on, and look forward to more ideas of merit.
Best of trading.
Quoting ha-pattern
Thanks for your interest in how I write. However,
this is turning into an "addiction to novelty" (1), and I'm fresh out of half-decent ideas.

I also don't have the answer to trading, because I don't make money off it: I'm merely 'different'.
There's lots who (likely, from I can make of their writings,) do, from several of the thread starters in the main commercial forum, to thread leaders and a few of the thread starters in the more popular Interactive...
Hi again...

I'm on a journey to address issues of the heart-mind that may affect traders and actually hinder them in their pursuit of becoming successful. So much of what you have said has been very powerful in accomplishing that very end. That's why I want to be clear in my understanding of the points you make; and also for the benefit of other viewers. Here is a quote from a chat I had with a trader:

Me: Ha-Pattern makes an interesting point about traders...

"They may know the answer to a trade only not trade it due to extraneous opinions about them in their own life. Insecurities underlie their trading...."

BINGO!!!

Trader: Basically I agree strongly with this view.

I think your insights are very deep and laser sharp at zeroing in on core issues.

No tabula rasa, not socratic (though that may come up from time to time). Closer to stream-of-consciousness I think.

"You started with linking it to emotion, only there's lots of other ways that may connect it to trading."

And that's where I'm heading in a bit. There is alot of emotional stuff that comes into trading, and many times traders are not aware of what's really happening to them. I have found your input very valuable. I'm sure other traders have too. I enjoy reading comments from viewers as I think their viewpoint can help to flesh things out and nail some of this stuff down. From there a trader might be able to put it all together into a workable format for themselves so they can derive the desired benefit in their trading.

Maybe I'll get to perception and filters later today. Will try. More emotional stuff is coming for sure 'cause it's a BIG PART (maybe 80%) of "the retail FX game", if not the game itself . The rest is the business. And really, if you get that "heart-mind game" right, you don't have to work that hard at the business side of it. It seems to take care of itself.

Thanks again,

FX4
Previous post..."And really, if you get that "heart-mind game" right, you don't have to work that hard at the business side of it. It seems to take care of itself." The money will be there. Want some proof? That is assuming of course that you already have a good trading approach.

Here is what this successful trader said:

"Something that became very clear to me during the past few weeks of trading: Being successful or not is very strongly related to the confidence you have in your own skills. I can say that my trading style has not changed much during the past 2.5 years. But my mindset has faced some ups and downs, mostly related to non-trading factors. So building up confidence and staying in balance is key to success."
Now below is their account balance curve from January 23, 2012 to today, February 9, 2012. I did not include the actual account balance (for privacy reasons), but it has doubled during the time period mentioned. As mentioned earlier, this trader does not use stops at all. Take profit orders are sometimes used as part of their risk/money management approach, but not in the "traditional" way that most traders do. The maximum drawdown during this time was 1.6%, so no gambling stats here. This is real.

Note: The horizontal axis on the chart represents the number of trades.

What we are discussing here in this thread is crucial to turning your trading around...mho.

FX4
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  • Rufus
    Joined Feb 2009
Quoting FX4Newbies;5371057

"And really, if you get that "heart-mind game" right, you don't have to work that hard at the business side of it. It seems to take care of itself." Want some proof? That is assuming of course that you already have a good trading approach.

FX4
Two things got the best of me early in the learning curve when it comes to trading.

1. Attitudes toward money.
a. How I grew up, working for every dime, "you have to earn it"
b. Certain religious leaders who thought they were speaking excathedria, saying how "Evil" certain things were.

2. Paralysis by Analysis.
If one indicator is good 10 is better, how about 12. I also believe this was a habit from childhood.

Trading exposes ALL mental roadblocks IMO. Each needs to be handled. Just yesterday I found myself doing one of my stupid habits. Just as I clicked the mouse I screamed to myself "What the hell are you doing?" Sometimes these mental roadblocks sit back in a corner of your brain waiting for a trigger to expose themselves. Then it becomes our job as a disciplined trader to hogtie it and throw it to the ground.

Just some random thoughts before going to work.

Trade safe all.
Quoting Rufus
Two things got the best of me early in the learning curve when it comes to trading.

1. Attitudes toward money.
a. How I grew up, working for every dime, "you have to earn it"
b. Certain religious leaders who thought they were speaking excathedria, saying how "Evil" certain things were.

2. Paralysis by Analysis.
If one indicator is good 10 is better, how about 12. I also believe this was a habit from childhood.

Trading exposes ALL mental roadblocks IMO. Each needs to be handled. Just yesterday I found...
You are absolutely right! Trading exposes ALL mental (and emotional) roadblocks. I think the reason that is so, is because money is attached, and money represents the bottom-line so to speak of almost everything in life that we have an attachment to.

Yes, each roadblock has to be handled, hogtied or whatever, until the habit is broken. Whenever they come out of the corner, we have to deal with them. Just imagine if a trader didn't know they were there, and they were still system-hunting? What a journey.

All of this is the main reason why I am so passionate about helping newbies avoid all the unnecessary trading drama. If they only knew...but they want to know how to trade, not how to become a trader. Big difference.

Thanks for stopping by before jetting off for the day. Be safe and have a good one .

FX4
Quoting Rufus

Trading exposes ALL mental roadblocks IMO. Each needs to be handled. Just yesterday I found myself doing one of my stupid habits. Just as I clicked the mouse I screamed to myself "What the hell are you doing?" Sometimes these mental roadblocks sit back in a corner of your brain waiting for a trigger to expose themselves. Then it becomes our job as a disciplined trader to hogtie it and throw it to the ground.

Just some random thoughts before going to work.

Trade safe all.
Rufus,

RE: Your statement in blue in the quote above, "What the hell are "you" doing?" A question here: Who is the "you" you were talking to? It's not the conscious 'you' asking the question; not the 'you' wanting to trade the way you know you should, but the other "you" that has been silently conditioned. Might be a good idea to use the "emotional staircase" idea found in Post 156 to locate the emotion that is feeding that other "you". That other "you" might be addicted to, or need to feed off of a certain emotion, and so it seeks to produce that emotion by acting in a way that would generate a certain outcome (for example: a trading loss) to trigger the emotion that it needs for whatever reason. So it keeps acting that certain way to have that addiction or need satisfied. Also look to see if you are trying to hogtie the same trading habit or behaviour. Part of your hog-tying effort is to find the reason or reasons behind it all, and to identify the emotions that it needs.

"Sometimes these mental roadblocks sit back in a corner of your brain waiting for a trigger to expose themselves."

Maybe, or they create the trigger to get want they want to "feel better", and they know just what trigger would do it. So, look at the end result of the trigger-pulling (the emotional-mental results as well) and work backwards. Maybe they just don't feel comfortable making money this way because it's too easy...gotta work hard for every dime.

Discipline is needed, but it would be so nice just to have that "voice" silenced once and for all. I think most traders have had to travel that road many, many, many times. And, they want the last day they traveled that road to be...yesterday . Know what I mean?

The worksheet link in Post 122 might give you some troubleshooting tools to arrest or hogtie that animal for good. You may have to scroll down the page a bit to get to the worksheet ideas.

Hope it gives you a good place from which to start.

FX4

P.S. "Sometimes these mental roadblocks sit back in a corner of your brain waiting for a trigger to expose themselves."

Maybe, they create the trigger to get want they want to "feel better", and they know just what trigger would do it. Or maybe, the mental roadblock or the emotional need IS the ever-present trigger. What determines the when and the why and in what manner it should be pulled is the question. Perhaps those three are related to what is already involved in the habit: the automatic, unconscious act. If that's the case, gotta think back to when you first started that trading behaviour to determine what was going on in your heart-mind then.

P.P.S. Could it be that the other "you" is looking for a way to control the situation because it becomes too uncomfortable whenever you are doing what you should be doing? Did you reverse your trading action immediately (take back the control) upon realizing the problem? Maybe you could try weaning the emotional need, like how a baby is weaned, by taking a very small loss every two or three days so it is satisfied then keep adding pips. Better yet, look at your trading history to see if there is a pattern and feed it accordingly, but you control the size of the loss. If you hogtie the negatively conditioned "you", it might erupt and want a major loss, which will compound the issue by inviting other emotions like anger, frustration, grief, regret etc. Feed it to appease it but keep starving it (smaller and smaller losses) at the same time. The goal of course is to eliminate its effect completely. A trader (Agro; starting at Post 86) made a point earlier in the thread...I am not a robot, I'm a human, so as a trader I do things to satisfy the emotional side.
Some interesting discussions this week. Let' see what we get over the weekend. Will plan to start the Perception/Mental Filters discussion next week.

Take care,

FX4
  • Post# 170
  • Quote
  • Feb 10, 2012 12:03pm | Edited Feb 11, 2012 8:41am – Added P.S. on Blink-perception.
More wisdom from this successful trader...Their first comments are found in Post 165.

They're up another 23.5% from yesterday.

"The good results I've had during the past few weeks are also based on being a little more patient, or in other words, I give a trade idea more room to develop...

A very small position is nearly infallible in giving you direct feedback: if your bias is wrong or right. Usually we hesitate to enter the market 'til we are really sure. The use of this position could be an enhancement.

I'm very tempted to start writing my book about the easy-ness of trading. We have a strong tendency to make it much too complicated. And why do we do that? 'Cause we do not believe in our skills and, that it could be that easy. We feel uncomfortable when we do not have dozens of indicators or trade confirmations on the screen...

I think trusting in the "Blink-perception" could be all we need. But who would believe that it is all we need? I also would not believe that in the first run: ''A million cannot be made with Blink-perception. To earn a million has to be difficult.'' We have learned to think that way.

Well - hope I can find some time to write a 20-page book about how to make a million...."

...and according to another trader..."The second million will be easier than the first thousand."

Food for thought...at least for the weekend.

FX4
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P.S. "Blink-perception" is that instinctive, intuitive-type of awareness we get without having to actively process the incoming information mentally, i.e. consciously. For example, you may come home and look at the coffee table. It "looks" fine at first glance, but something just doesn't look/feel right about it...and you feel it in the pit of your stomach that instant. It may not be immediately obvious to your conscious mind what the difference is, but because of the "nagging suspicion" you keep probing and realize that the table had been moved and repositioned, and was just a little bit off.

Price action can give us that type of reaction as well. As soon as you see a candlestick formation you just "know": "This is getting ready to come down,"...and it does. Your trading method may also confirm it at that moment, but if not, it should at least catch up with the Blink-moment "confirmation" later: but "you" already knew it. Sometimes you click, and shortly after doing so, you get this "feeling" of, "Uh-oh...this ain't right." It's that Blink-connection warning you that your action was not in sync with what was truly going on. The mental filtering process creates the discrepancy, so we need to find a way to compensate for how the mind "processes" incoming information. Blink-perception is not a fool-proof approach, but has enough merit that we as traders should consider including some elements from it.

More on this in the discussion on Perception and Filters next week.

FX4
  • Rufus
    Joined Feb 2009
Quoting FX4Newbies
P.S. "Blink-perception" is that instinctive, intuitive-type of awareness we get without having to actively process the incoming information mentally, i.e. consciously. For example, you may come home and look at the coffee table. It looks "fine" at first glance, but something just doesn't "look/feel" right about it...and you feel it in the pit of your stomach that instant. It may not be immediately obvious to your conscious mind what is different, but because of the "nagging...
Sounds like you will be mentioning this book. It was great read.

It's a book about rapid cognition, about the kind of thinking that happens in a blink of an eye. When you meet someone for the first time, or walk into a house you are thinking of buying, or read the first few sentences of a book, your mind takes about two seconds to jump to a series of conclusions. Well, "Blink" is a book about those two seconds, because I think those instant conclusions that we reach are really powerful and really important and, occasionally, really good
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Quoting Rufus
Sounds like you will be mentioning this book. It was great read.

It's a book about rapid cognition, about the kind of thinking that happens in a blink of an eye. When you meet someone for the first time, or walk into a house you are thinking of buying, or read the first few sentences of a book, your mind takes about two seconds to jump to a series of conclusions. Well, "Blink" is a book about those two seconds, because I think those instant conclusions that we reach are really powerful and really important and, occasionally, really...
Rufus! It will be a part of the discussion for sure. Seems like you are well-armed already.

FX4
  • Rufus
    Joined Feb 2009
Quoting FX4Newbies
. It will be a part of the discussion for sure. Seems like you are well-armed already.

FX4
This book is one of my all-time favorites. The most concise and readable book on how our minds operate with thin slices of time I have ever read. Might need to parooz it again
Quoting Rufus
This book is one of my all-time favorites. The most concise and readable book on how our minds operate with thin slices of time I have ever read. Might need to parooz it again
It is a good read. I also think it is possible to condition ourselves to respond more to that aspect of our mental faculty: to function more in "thin slice" mode. I think the "blink" response is clear when it first comes, then we process it and process it...through our intellect. We just think too hard. We do a similar thing with the food we eat trying to "refine" it to make it "better", and at the end what is left has little or no value and can even make us sick in the long-run.

Will see if I can come up with some exercises we can do to help condition the mind along those lines. Don't recall now if there were any in the book.

I think if a trader has a clear/sharp, profitable trading edge that they trade consistently, the "blink moment" will resonate so deeply within...it will be like the chart was talking to the trader telling them what's next. How 'bout a "blink habit"? In reality, we blink without even thinking about it...and that's the idea, to condition our trading minds to the point where our "blink trading habit" is so strong, no other mindset will be able to shake us to get us to trade some foolishness when we know better.

Like a post I saw by The_Wizard...Trade only when you see your edge, and in the meantime, do your best to do nothing stupid. Might not be the exact statement, but the idea is close . Whenever we put on a trade, an emotional attachment forms, so, we want to avoid being attached to trades that aren't based on our edge. The way to avoid it is to never put one on 'cause that might be the one trade that bleeds your account and also be the one you don't want to let go.

FX4

P.S. ...no other mindset...and that's where the "game" part of this business is played: one mindset against the other. Will be getting more into that game playing down the road.
Now, here's a blink-kind of idea to develop those powerful mental trading muscles. Years ago I wondered how bank tellers were trained to identify counterfeit money. I thought what a challenge it could be given all of the fake money out there. Also, bank tellers don't have alot of time to make that determination. Then one day I found out that they were trained to identify the counterfeit by handling the real thing over and over again. The end result: the moment their fingers touched a fake bill, something in them went off..."Uh-uh, this one ain't real." (Now they use the counterfeit pen).

Seems like the "blink conditioning" for a trader is just finding your edge and trading it over and over again. That's what I was doing in the early Fall of 2010, and I had at least 20 winning trades in a row. And, it was the easiest thing to do: no stress whatsoever.

So traders, there is your Blink Trading Exercise #1. Trade your edge (hopefully it's a good one) over and over and over..., and remember, try not to do anything foolish in between while you're waiting for the market to come to you .

Trade well: more blinking and less thinking, and you'll be flowing with the market. Riding a wave requires a certain amount of letting go and flowing with the feel of board under your feet. I'm not a surfer, but I thought this was interesting coming from someone who is teaching others to surf:

Remember, wherever you direct your eyes, your board will follow...

Hmm...so, wherever you direct your seeing "blink-trading-mind", your account will follow?" Is that what this successful trader in the earlier posts has been doing?

FX4

P.S. A much longer article here on surfing, but I thought some neat ideas were presented that could be applied to trading.
  • Rufus
    Joined Feb 2009
Quoting FX4Newbies
Now, here's a blink-kind of idea to develop those powerful mental trading muscles. Years ago I wondered how bank tellers were trained to identify counterfeit money. I thought what a challenge it could be given all of the fake money out there. One day I found out that they were trained to identify the counterfeit by handling the real thing over and over again. The end result: the moment their fingers touched a fake bill, something in them went off..."Uh-uh, this one ain't real." Seems like the "blink conditioning" for a trader is just...
My sister worked as a cashier in Reno. Someone slipped her 2 $100 counterfeit bills. As she put it "I was glad to be a blond...played dumb while waiting for two of the biggest bouncers who came after she pressed the silent alarm. She miss-counted chips, dropped one etc. I guess it took all of 8 seconds for the bouncers to show up. Take it from me who has ridden bulls, eight seconds can be an eternity. But you are correct she knew it the instant they touched her hand.

As we see an edge in our trading repeatedly and act with the same repetitiveness the blink trigger will develop. Conscious thought will be replaced by the subconscious. Our blink response will be accurate and decisive. But this will only develop when we develop an accurate and decisive habit in our trading.

How about driving a car. Do we have to think through the process to apply the break? Now if we can put on a position with the same nonchalant action and attitude as picking up money we found on the floor.
Quoting Rufus
My sister worked as a cashier in Reno. Someone slipped her 2 $100 counterfeit bills. As she put it "I was glad to be a blond...played dumb while waiting for two of the biggest bouncers who came after she pressed the silent alarm. She miss-counted chips, dropped one etc. I guess it took all of 8 seconds for the bouncers to show up. Take it from me who has ridden bulls, eight seconds can be an eternity. But you are correct she knew it the instant they touched her hand.

As we see an edge in our trading repeatedly and act with the same repetitiveness...
Good for her! And that's the kind of sensitivity I think should be developed in traders.

Eight seconds riding a bull is a long time. I got up on a camel once. Didn't realize how high up I would be sitting on it. That was scary for a minute.

Now if we can put on a position with the same nonchalant action and attitude as picking up money we found on the floor.

Now wouldn't that be trading heaven: money coming (up) and going (down)..without being a pig because they get slaughtered, right?

Very possible.

Let's just do it then. Why not?!

FX4
  • Rufus
    Joined Feb 2009
Quoting FX4Newbies

Now if we can put on a position with the same nonchalant action and attitude as picking up money we found on the floor.

Now wouldn't that be trading heaven: money coming (up) and going (down).

Very possible.

Let's just do it then. Why not?!

FX4
Deal
Quoting Rufus
Deal
Deal . We'll keep beating that "other mindset" into subjection by "blink-thinking" our trading edge, and keep making money coming and going.

E-a-s-y does it . Chi-Ching.


FX4

P.S. And here's the loot Rufus...we've got it made now.
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