great info thanx...just wondering why not a higher return for these big shots...i understand the total uncertainty of the market...but i mean these guys r suppose to be the real deal...i also uderstand that 47% of 500mil is alot of money and that these guys risk exposure is probably lower than the average speculator (is this right??) and also that these guys trade mostly on fundamentals....hmmmm i would be very happy with 40% return on 200,000...its making more sense to me now...the more i have, the less i would personally risk as a %....just wanted to give my thoughts...any comments welcome..

great info thanx...just wondering why not a higher return for these big shots...i understand the total uncertainty of the market...but i mean these guys r suppose to be the real deal...i also uderstand that 47% of 500mil is alot of money:) and that these guys risk exposure is probably lower than the average speculator (is this right??) and also that these guys trade mostly on fundamentals....hmmmm i would be very happy with 40% return on 200,000...its making more sense to me now...the more i have, the less i would personally risk as a %....just wanted to give my thoughts...any comments welcome..

great story wade! we have this topic come up a lot and it usually ends with the dunning-kruger's telling the seasoned traders that they are dream crushers LOL. but the hedgefund industry has some of the most talented traders in the world, and here are their numbers for all to see!

great story wade! we have this topic come up a lot and it usually ends with the dunning-kruger's telling the seasoned traders that they are dream crushers LOL. but the hedgefund industry has some of the most talented traders in the world, and here are their numbers for all to see!

It was also widely thought and accepted that human beings could not run a mile in under 4 minutes. Then when someone(Roger Bannister) accomplished that task it became more the norm than the exception.

I refuse to accept that people can not do better than others have done in the past.

It was also widely thought and accepted that human beings could not run a mile in under 4 minutes. Then when someone(Roger Bannister) accomplished that task it became more the norm than the exception. I refuse to accept that people can not do better than others have done in the past.

Quick answer - yes

Quick answer - yes

Wade -

Good post. Compounding interest is the road to riches.

While I suppose I could earn 400% in a year, it would be because I am taking too much risk. And after doing that, would I really want to get out of the market? No. Therefore, I would be exposing myself to the inevitable. (This is in response to the 4 minute mile comment. Although, I do agree with you to some extent.)

But, as a quick exercise, try compounding any number by 20% a year for 10 years......this is how we make money.

As always, thank you for your post.

Wade - Good post. Compounding interest is the road to riches. While I suppose I could earn 400% in a year, it would be because I am taking too much risk. And after doing that, would I really want to get out of the market? No. Therefore, I would be exposing myself to the inevitable. (This is in response to the 4 minute mile comment. Although, I do agree with you to some extent.) But, as a quick exercise, try compounding any number by 20% a year for 10 years......this is how we make money. As always, thank you for your post.

50% is not a big deal. In average I used to make more than that annually even on USD multi-million accounts. On my view, when trading big, the only real problem is the liquidity. So, sometimes it requires a bit more efforts to make a smart split between different currency pairs. But other than that anything sub $300 mio. under management shouldn't be a problem to trade targeting this sort of returns.

50% is not a big deal. In average I used to make more than that annually even on USD multi-million accounts. On my view, when trading big, the only real problem is the liquidity. So, sometimes it requires a bit more efforts to make a smart split between different currency pairs. But other than that anything sub $300 mio. under management shouldn't be a problem to trade targeting this sort of returns.

What you don't realize is that the funds operate with Billions of dollars. It is exponentially more difficult to turn a 100% annual profit on a $2 Billion account than it is on a $200,000 account. I earn 1-3% a day 10 years running but I'm not operating with that kind of capital. If I were then it would prob be 1-3% a week or month at best. So don't limit your expectations by numbers posted by Hedgies in Barrons

What you don't realize is that the funds operate with Billions of dollars. It is exponentially more difficult to turn a 100% annual profit on a $2 Billion account than it is on a $200,000 account. I earn 1-3% a day 10 years running but I'm not operating with that kind of capital. If I were then it would prob be 1-3% a week or month at best. So don't limit your expectations by numbers posted by Hedgies in Barrons

The size of the hedge fund is a consideration. a multi-billion fund trading stocks would be quite limited on what they could invest. You can invest 100 million in coca cola but not sure if they will double their earnings anytime soon. If you invest in smaller companies you would end up buying them up. Forex I see as something different. There isn't really a limit to the amount you can trade. 1 Billion long on the pound might not have as much impact as one would think. The chance to making more than 50% a year is definitely there, but let your system be your guide, not your excel projection.

The size of the hedge fund is a consideration. a multi-billion fund trading stocks would be quite limited on what they could invest. You can invest 100 million in coca cola but not sure if they will double their earnings anytime soon. If you invest in smaller companies you would end up buying them up. Forex I see as something different. There isn't really a limit to the amount you can trade. 1 Billion long on the pound might not have as much impact as one would think. The chance to making more than 50% a year is definitely there, but let your system be your guide, not your excel projection.

I have to chime back in here with a couple of comments:

First, I want to re-emphasize my point that there are years that you can have incredible returns. 50% may seem like a low mark on those years, but you will most likely have been exposed to more risk. Also, those years will be offset by years where you will experience sub-par performance. When you average it all out in the end, however, you will have some great overall returns.

Second, I've got to question Phasna on the numbers posted above. You said you've been making 1-3% a day on average for the past 10 years. Let's assume that you started with $1,000 in your trading account, that you made 1% per day and that there are about 250 trading days per year. If you compound that out over 10 years, your account should now be worth $63,596,681,796,488.10. Sorry, but your numbers are nowhere close to reality.

Retail forex investors should be able to earn 1-3% per month on average, not 1-3% per day.

I have to chime back in here with a couple of comments: First, I want to re-emphasize my point that there are years that you can have incredible returns. 50% may seem like a low mark on those years, but you will most likely have been exposed to more risk. Also, those years will be offset by years where you will experience sub-par performance. When you average it all out in the end, however, you will have some great overall returns. Second, I've got to question Phasna on the numbers posted above. You said you've been making 1-3% a day on average for the past 10 years. Let's assume that you started with $1,000 in your trading account, that you made 1% per day and that there are about 250 trading days per year. If you compound that out over 10 years, your account should now be worth $63,596,681,796,488.10. Sorry, but your numbers are nowhere close to reality. Retail forex investors should be able to earn 1-3% per month on average, not 1-3% per day.

Merlin's knows the drill, this can be a painful discussion. But let me tell you that while some of the best talent in the industry are managing hedge funds full-time, there are many self-made millionaires who are not interested in devoting their lives to this, and who make much more per year by making simple phone calls to their broker. I will not discuss my figures, but yes, 50% can easily beaten over a few months, and I'm not talking about a mini-account.

Merlin's knows the drill, this can be a painful discussion. But let me tell you that while some of the best talent in the industry are managing hedge funds full-time, there are many self-made millionaires who are not interested in devoting their lives to this, and who make much more per year by making simple phone calls to their broker. I will not discuss my figures, but yes, 50% can easily beaten over a few months, and I'm not talking about a mini-account.

LArge hedge funds DON'T trade like most of us do. First, they can't because of liquidity. Second, they don't jump in and jump out while grabbing 10-100 pips a trade. They are more long term players.

So, different rules, different issues and thus different returns. I've made well above 100% since August 1st, and that's using very conservative money management (1% risk with a 200 pip SL).

Besides, to look at this from another angle, if a Hedge Fund trader can lose more than 50% in a month (which we all know has happened far too often), then one could obviously make better than 50% in a month.

LArge hedge funds DON'T trade like most of us do. First, they can't because of liquidity. Second, they don't jump in and jump out while grabbing 10-100 pips a trade. They are more long term players. So, different rules, different issues and thus different returns. I've made well above 100% since August 1st, and that's using very conservative money management (1% risk with a 200 pip SL). Besides, to look at this from another angle, if a Hedge Fund trader can lose more than 50% in a month (which we all know has happened far too often), then one could obviously make better than 50% in a month.

Hey sundevil - If you made 200 pips every week of the year and compound the returns on a weekly basis and traded 50 weeks of the year and never had a losing week it would give you an annual return of just under 70%. Your claim of above 100% returns using that risk level is incredible. Would you mind providing a little more detail on how you do this?

Hey sundevil - If you made 200 pips every week of the year and compound the returns on a weekly basis and traded 50 weeks of the year and never had a losing week it would give you an annual return of just under 70%. Your claim of above 100% returns using that risk level is incredible. Would you mind providing a little more detail on how you do this?

So, what's easier? Doubling $250, or doubling $100,000,000?

Which would I rather have, doubling $250, or 5% of $100,000,000?

I'll take the $5million, say I made 5%, and call it a....year.

If I had $1000, with 400:1. even 200:1 would work on this. 100 pips at one standard lot would give me 100%. I assume Forex is similar to stocks were it's easy to go in and out with $100 than it is to shove a million dollars into things.

Another argument about math conversions, pips versus % versus real dollars, etc.

The original intent makes an extremely excellent point. But not everyone trades the same, and the smaller retail traders aren't going to have the same experience as the Hedge people. That's all.
Percents are great, but they need numbers. 100% of 0.00 is still zero. Those guys doing 30% are still doing better than I am I bet.

So, what's easier? Doubling $250, or doubling $100,000,000? Which would I rather have, doubling $250, or 5% of $100,000,000? I'll take the $5million, say I made 5%, and call it a....year. If I had $1000, with 400:1. even 200:1 would work on this. 100 pips at one standard lot would give me 100%. I assume Forex is similar to stocks were it's easy to go in and out with $100 than it is to shove a million dollars into things. Another argument about math conversions, pips versus % versus real dollars, etc. The original intent makes an extremely excellent point. But not everyone trades the same, and the smaller retail traders aren't going to have the same experience as the Hedge people. That's all. Percents are great, but they need numbers. 100% of 0.00 is still zero. Those guys doing 30% are still doing better than I am I bet.

how about this guy???
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=49586

how about this guy??? [url]http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=49586[/url]

PFXGlobal

Sorry buddy its legit. I don't compound I withdraw all profits weekly and sweep to my swing and position account and I trade currency futures not the cash forex

PFXGlobal Sorry buddy its legit. I don't compound I withdraw all profits weekly and sweep to my swing and position account and I trade currency futures not the cash forex

i think the word "hedge" fund really mean, hedge the fund, and they still profit from that hedge, while we don't (mostly) do the hedge and get profit, no?

i think the word "hedge" fund really mean, hedge the fund, and they still profit from that hedge, while we don't (mostly) do the hedge and get profit, no?

phasna, why withdraw? Just keep your money in the day account and let it compound. Soon you'll be a kazillionaire and won't need to care about swing/position. Sorry if I seem skeptical, but honestly, if you are achieving those kinds of numbers, wouldn't that be the way to go?

phasna, why withdraw? Just keep your money in the day account and let it compound. Soon you'll be a kazillionaire and won't need to care about swing/position. Sorry if I seem skeptical, but honestly, if you are achieving those kinds of numbers, wouldn't that be the way to go?

Jacko, mark and me are crapping all over those figures. No BS

Jacko, mark and me are crapping all over those figures. No BS

Hmmmm Jacko, Mark and I are.......From what I understand hedge funds usually charge between 20-30% of earnings for their services. Are these figures the payout for their clients? If so, the funds actual performance would be higher. So to pay out 47.69% minus fee of (20-30%), the fund would need to perform around 59-68%. 68%=47.69%/70%.

Hmmmm Jacko, Mark and I are.......From what I understand hedge funds usually charge between 20-30% of earnings for their services. Are these figures the payout for their clients? If so, the funds actual performance would be higher. So to pay out 47.69% minus fee of (20-30%), the fund would need to perform around 59-68%. 68%=47.69%/70%.